Opinion: Tell Me What Art Is, and I’ll Tell You What Games Are
September 27, 2008 4:00 PM | Simon Carless
[In this opinion piece, semi-pseudonymous Game Developer magazine columnist Matthew Wasteland takes a look at gaming's place in the creative canon, looking at what critics miss within gaming, and what everyone needs to understand about games as an artform.]
Most people in the video game industry, and many people who write about them for a living, hope for games to be taken seriously as art or literature. It’s just around the corner, we believe— the day the establishment flings open the door to us and lets us in, apologetic tears streaming from their eyes. “We misjudged you,” they’ll cry, “Just like we initially misjudged movies, jazz, and prose poetry.” Games are a brand new medium, we console ourselves, and these hidebound fogeys just need time to understand it.
The conventional wisdom is that we’re nearly there— that everyone on our side is just being a little too uncreative, or that the software tools are just a bit lacking, and that our wildest dreams are possible with just a little more cleverness in our game designs and some new technological developments. “Design challenges” at industry conferences exhort professionals to stretch their brains by sketching out an idea based around something perceived to be an unconventional subject matter (for games, anyway); Moby Dick, for example. We may not have much cachet, people may shrink away when we explain what we do at non-industry social gatherings, but hey! Just the other day we were talking about ideas for games based on Moby Dick! How could that not be serious and important?
We all believe in the future of the games (I think this is why we are here, right?), and while my Magical Wasteland weblog has become known for its skeptical tack, I want to point out I have nothing but respect for those who are courageously trying to expand our thinking about games. I am questioning things because I want them to get better.
If there are significant limits to what games (as we know them now) can do, we need to understand those limits so we can overcome them. Critics of older media often dismiss video games without fully explaining why; this is an attempt to do it in their stead.
Some Possible Approaches
Firstly, we have our “traditional” adaptations. Given that we wanted to maintain at least some semblance to the original work, we have a couple familiar options for Moby Dick: The Video Game (there are also ways to combine both approaches to varying degrees, but for the sake of the exercise I will talk about them as separates).
The first approach would be to keep the sequence of major events— Captain Ahab’s first encounter with the title character, his desire for revenge, his madness, and subsequent death— and attempt to insert gameplay sequences around those fixed points. The player therefore could have fun sailing the Pequod and catching whales at some point between Ahab’s first and second encounters with the whale. Success at these parts of the game would allow him to proceed further in the story. But no matter how much freedom the player was given to navigate the ocean in his own self-directed way, ultimately, the predetermined story of Captain Ahab’s obsession wins out, and at the end of the game, Moby Dick destroys the Pequod no matter what happened in the intervening time.
Most large-budget titles made today take this route (the average consumer does not seem to mind it at all), but many game designers and commentators find themselves dissatisfied with it. It means the player’s agency in the game world is only an illusion. No matter what the player does, or how well he plays, the white whale will kill Captain Ahab in a short cinematic scene after the gameplay is over.
That’s the story that’s been set up for the player to experience, and he travels along that path like a tourist on a Disneyland ride. However much choice the player seems to have in between these story checkpoints, the overall path of the game is geometrically equivalent to those of film or theater or books. We choose to ignore the fundamental quality that makes games different and so compelling— their interactivity.
The other approach is to “open up” Moby Dick, to allow the player real, significant choices in the course of events and their outcomes. In this configuration, an especially skillful player might be so good at the game that he does indeed catch and kill Moby Dick, triumphantly achieving Captain Ahab’s revenge— and along with it, destroying the whole point of Melville’s story. Allowing such an alternate ending robs the work of its power; the story of Moby Dick is engaging precisely because Captain Ahab cannot find extra lives, rewind time or load an old save for a second chance, and the story of his obsession and undoing is fixed over time, a static sculpture in four dimensions.
The issue of these changeable outcomes is what the critic Roger Ebert infamously identified as the central problem with games-as-art, and despite the emotional flurries and dismissive grumblings from the gaming community, it is actually a good point without a clear answer. If Melville had so much as allowed for any possibility at all where Captain Ahab “wins,” no matter how remote, the work’s message and its interpretation of the world completely changes. Instead of destiny and fate, we would now speak of probability and chance. Work hard enough, get lucky enough, and anything is possible.
The problems of these two approaches show why, despite our high hopes and our big money, it sometimes feels like all we have to showcase for our vaunted new storytelling medium is either something that is basically a film or a book conflated with pockets of gameplay, or a cheesy Choose Your Own Adventure affair where no single story can really be granted sole authorial intent.
This puts us in a strange bind: we’re either imitative of, and beholden to, the arts that preceded us (“if you want a good story, why not read a book?”), or we are unmoored in a postmodern haze, trying to argue that a quantum superposition of many possible outcomes is just as artful as a linear story (“this painting is a work of art and self-expression— but it doesn’t matter if that part is red or blue or green”). Neither of these options is fully satisfying.
On 'Systems As Art'
Then, we have what I will call “systems-as-art”. An example of systems-as-art in its simplest and unvarnished form is Rod Humble’s experiment, The Marriage, wherein a couple of floating squares (one blue, one pink) drift around a field but must meet certain different conditions in order to prevent the “game” (that is, the marriage) from ending. Playing it is an exercise in attempting to sustain equilibrium in the face of change, something we understand to be the author’s interpretation of what being in a marriage feels like.
Humble argues that a set of rules by itself can communicate meaning and achieve the status of art. By the same logic, if The Marriage is a work of art about marriage, then chess is a work of art about conflict and war, Monopoly might be a work of art about capitalism, even the sport of basketball could potentially be a work of art about, say, agility and endurance.
Jonathan Blow, the creator of Braid, goes even farther, suggesting that the creation of internally consistent rule systems is a superior method to writing for the conveyance of philosophy (although in the same interview, he also mentions that nobody has yet fully understood the meaning of his game).
The Marriage is almost completely devoid of context. The system of its rules exist and operate with the barest of any qualities that might attach the player to what is going on. The two squares change position grow or shink in size, and become opaque or transparent. The player may understand (by dint of the game’s title) on some level that one of the boxes is meant to represent the husband, and the other box is the wife, and he may try to keep them together. But it’s also likely that he will see the colored, geometric shapes and not feel much of anything. What brings us to care about a colored square in a video game world?
One of the moments of emotional resonance in Portal is the incineration (by the player’s own hand) of the coyly named and designed Weighted Companion Cube. One could argue that the Companion Cube is just as nonrepresentational as the boxes in The Marriage, but context is the key. It is the only cube of its kind (it has hearts on it, as opposed to the numerous nondescript cubes strewn throughout the game). The level in which the Companion Cube appears is impossible to solve without it. The player’s nemesis, tormentor, and unreliable narrator has specifically advised the player not to become attached to it.
Finally, this villain suggests that the Companion Cube cannot speak, but if it could, it would politely ask the player to destroy it. This is very clever: at that moment, the player can’t help but to imagine the Companion Cube speaking. What would it say? “Please don’t incinerate me,” probably. We feel sorry we have to destroy the Companion Cube to progress in the game. Despite ourselves, we hope we will see it again somehow.
Why would you care about a simple box in a video game? Portal, I think, offers a better answer. Our experience of the Companion Cube sequence draws us in, it interests us. The Marriage doesn’t do that, and that is its fundamental weakness: it is not particularly fun or engaging, except by virtue of the fact that it is one of the first and few deliberate explorations of systems-as-art. Humble comes close to acknowledging this, saying that “The Marriage is intended to be art,” and “meant to be enjoyable but not entertaining in the traditional sense most games are.”
Distancing the work from the “entertainment” of popular games is fine, but even the most artsy, obscure and difficult works must connect with an audience somehow. I am not sure a system of rules by itself is the best method to achieve that. If rules are art, could not one just as easily publish a rulebook, and leave it at that?
None of this is to say that a system of rules cannot be of artful construction. I have no doubt that, if we wished it and worked for it, we could at some point have departments at forward-thinking arts colleges devoted to the creation of not-very-representational rule systems as art. This might make some of us feel better about ourselves— that there is a recognized, serious side to our medium.
But I can’t help but think something like that would be a Pyrrhic victory, with “art games” sharing space in an airless pantheon next to twelve-tone music or hypertext novellas while the rest of the world goes on listening to primordial melodies and timeworn stories reinvented in the style of the day.
Conclusion
It has become a recognized cliché in these kinds of conversations to ask, “have games had their Citizen Kane yet?” It’s not as if the moment Citizen Kane was released, everyone suddenly decided that the medium of film was serious and important and the next great art form. But I think there’s a reason we have been speaking in terms of Citizen Kane and not, for example, Un Chien Andalou.
While both are important milestones in the history of the medium, Citizen Kane is accessible and easy to like. It synthesized much of what was known about filmmaking up to that point into a coherent whole. It married technical innovations with a good story. It showed that a film could be high and low, art and spectacle, serious and entertaining all at once. A medium that can deliver all of that in one package is a great medium indeed.
Categories:








77 Comments
I think there's a false dichotomy in a lot of folks' thinking about player agency and plot. A common assumption is that in order to have player agency, the developer needs to discard all authorial control and let the player do whatever the hell she wants. This isn't true, though. The selection of interface, game world, and NPCs applies constraints to player agency.
There's a reason why Ishmael is the narrator of Moby Dick and not Ahab. I can easily envision a game with certain absolutes: Ahab will never abandon his obsession, and Moby Dick cannot die without Ahab dying too. In that framework, the PC is free to do a number of things: killing Ahab before he dooms the ship comes to mind, as does deserting or mutinying. Instead of saying "in this situation, this thing happened," you're saying "in this situation, these things *can* happen." I think that still provides a place for authorial control and for artistic expression without segregating itself into art-game obscurity.
Gregory Weir | September 27, 2008 4:49 PM
It's worth pointing out when the "Citizen Kane" of games is referenced that Citizen Kane came long after film was already respected as a serious art form and wasn't recognized itself as a worthwhile film until some time after it's release.
The fundamental problem with the perception of games and that of art is this concept of "high and low, art and spectacle, serious and entertaining." As if what is art cannot or should not be entertaining or what is entertainment should not be artful. The reason critics separate entertainment from art is because that which is created only for the purpose of entertainment is often uninteresting to a critic. "Entertainment" speaks a different language than what critics refer to as "art." However, there is no rational reason to create these categories and in fact art theory has, for decades, openly accepted the art of pop entertainment.
Film is in part responsible for the latest smearing of that imaginary line between art and entertainment which has occurred over the past 300 years. It is a medium that was cheap to enjoy, reproducible on a massive scale so many could enjoy it, and it was born at a time when the most "high" of art forms were well acquainted with "lowness." Painters, writers, and musicians were embracing the look, language, and song of the lower classes. The concept of "high art" went out with the Age of Enlightenment. Art has been low for quite some time.
Every game is art. No matter how simple or stupid. But we all want something special, right? Something really artful, whatever that means.
I'll tell you the secret to making an artful game. Forget everything you know about how a game should be, and make it how you want it to be, not for popularity or money, but for whatever reason you you went into games to start with. I guarantee that game will reflect you as an individual, even if you didn't mean it to.
Christopher J. Rock | September 27, 2008 4:57 PM
To showcase what potential games could have for Moby Dick, I'D like to take a rather radical step: Remove the whale.
The whale is not important. What is important is Ahab's obsession with killing it.
So, you get a very tiny sandbox (Ahab's ship), a crew to interact with and Ahab who is the main antagonist. Your task is to keep the crew alive against Ahab, who couldn't care less as long as he can get the whale. You'd have to fight skorbut, rats, leakages, crew rivalries etc. all while pressing Ahab to get the needed material. Moby Dick will never appear (or, in a final cutscene), but the crew will ultimately die as you cannot win this fight forever. Well, or Ahab dies (of age or fighting against mutineers).
This is what we need to do: Stressing what games do have books and movies don't: Interactive immersion. Doing so, we don't need the whale anymore. In fact, the whale becomes a disturbence, it would lessen the point imho to find out Ahab's obsession is with a real animal rather than some image he is haunted by.
Game producers go a straightforward route of literally adapting material. This I perceive as the wrong one. If you adapt something, go figure out what is the core of it and then build your experience to stress that. If you compare the few good movie adaptations of novels, you can see this happening - Planet of the Apes would be a prime example of significant difference between novel and movie actually making the movie adaptation good rather than a blunt copy of the book.
Now, this rather long text obviously is not even that much about art, but about adaptations, but the post just inpired me to type this.
Tom R. Diehl | September 28, 2008 1:34 AM
please check out, ICO, shadows of the colussus and Okami when mentioning videogames and art on the same article
Enrico Palisoc | September 28, 2008 12:59 PM
This is a good take on the topic, I appreciate the Moby Dick example. I'd humbly suggest, however, that the player would be Ishmael, not Ahab. Point of view and the rigidity of this approach to the material is one of the primary obstacles to games-as-art and is one of the critiques that the Eberts of the world level at the medium, even as they misunderstand it. The lockdown of the player POV to a given method of exploring the game world is a subtle but pernicious barrier, for many would-be gamers or those who want to "appreciate" games. Film, fiction, representational and abstract art and even music have a greater range of perspectives and viewpoints than most games, and this support for multiple perspectives and POVs is what gives those mediums context and cultural location (if you don't mind some poststructural analysis). I will never see City 17 through the eyes of Dr. Breen, or a Combine trooper, or Alyx Vance; my world is only the invisible mute Gordon Freeman and his forced, limited and constantly-moving viewpoint of a carefully crafted world that forces me always forward.
One example I used with my students all the time: I ask them, "Is Bioshock art?" which usually results in about 90% agreement. Then, I ask, "does art poke you in the eye for looking at it wrong?" The fact that Bioshock kills you, again and again, for failing to interpret the rules and systems of its world correctly and for failing to apply reflexes and chance correctly, is a huge barrier between the art and the art appreciator. If Ebert can't find art in the rigid, rythmic symmetry of Space Invaders, he's not going to find it in games that look like art but still demand a forced interpretation of that game world which is enforced by punishment and humiliation. We may be using more art in our game content, these days, but as long as the games are about conquest, death and control, we're speaking binary to the nongamer crowd.
Michael Eilers | September 28, 2008 1:02 PM
To echo some of the points made above, the immersive/player input aspects of videogames and a linear plot are not mutually exclusive. A great example lies in this article itself, with Portal's Companion Cube. The plot there is linear. The player uses the cube to move forward through the level, then destroys the cube. There is no option to avoid destroying the cube. There is no "alternate ending." And yet would we say that this emotional arc would therefore be better represented through a different medium likes movies or books?
No, and the reason why is simple-- the very fact that it is the player carrying the cube and that it is the player who has to destroy the cube is what gives the scene its emotional power. The scene plays on the player's emotion precisely by making him personally attached to the cube and then forcing him to come to the realization in his own time that he has no choice but to detroy the cube. The inevitability combined with the interactivity are the source of the scene's power and are what makes it a unique emotional experience that can only really be found in gaming.
Roger Ebert is now, as ever, just flat wrong. The problem is lack of proper perspective. While I like Tom's proposal above, Moby Dick, or Romeo and Juliet, are simply not good stories to be told in an interactive medium. That doesn't mean there aren't other stories that are more suitable. One can easily imagine a story where the mutability of the story, and thus the accessibility of multiple endings, is the point of the story itself, or, conversely, a story about fatalism that allows the player to take radically different paths to the same endpoint as a manner of demonstrating the inevitability of said endpoint.
My point is, the idea that player input somehow prevents a compelling narrative is absurd, but mainly because it is done from the perspective of trying to apply narratives designed for a different medium to a new medium where they don't fit as well. If inclusion of player interactivity is robbing the story of its point, you're telling the wrong story.
JP Davis | September 28, 2008 1:18 PM
I did an interview with designer Jason Rohrer about the importance of context in rule-based art. We talked specifically about Rod Humble's The Marriage--The interview was conducted in July, and can be found here if anyone is interested: http://thehappymedium.tumblr.com/
Travis Boisvenue | September 28, 2008 1:44 PM
"The issue of these changeable outcomes is what the critic Roger Ebert infamously identified as the central problem with games-as-art, and despite the emotional flurries and dismissive grumblings from the gaming community, it is actually a good point without a clear answer."
It was a terrible point because Ebert completely misunderstood the nature of video games. He thought that in a video game you are free to do literally anything, which is obviously not true. The game developer decides what choices, if any, the player has.
"If Melville had so much as allowed for any possibility at all where Captain Ahab "wins," no matter how remote, the work’s message and its interpretation of the world completely changes. Instead of destiny and fate, we would now speak of probability and chance. Work hard enough, get lucky enough, and anything is possible."
If, in an alternate reality, Melville had made the story like that, you would have written "instead of probability and chance, we would now speak of destiny and fate." I don't understand what point you're trying to make.
"This puts us in a strange bind: we’re either imitative of, and beholden to, the arts that preceded us ("if you want a good story, why not read a book?"), or we are unmoored in a postmodern haze, trying to argue that a quantum superposition of many possible outcomes is just as artful as a linear story ("this painting is a work of art and self-expression" but it doesn’t matter if that part is red or blue or green"). Neither of these options is fully satisfying."
The first option has not even been fully explored yet, and I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who sees that. So much more could be done. There's nothing wrong with making a video game that's essentially an interactive movie, because a great and well-told story is still a great and well-told story even if it exists in a video game. Video games also enable some things that are simply not possible in movies, like dialogue choices (for example, you might stop to talk to a character simply to learn more about the game's world or to hear a story) and the freedom to explore and examine the environment at your own pace, and they also lack the time constraints of movies. There's also gameplay involved. So, even if the game is a plain old linear adventure game, it's still taking advantage of the medium's unique properties.
As for the second option, a branching story could be effectively used in any number of ("artistic") ways, and no matter how many branches there are they're still deliberately written by someone. You, like Ebert, make it sound like a non-linear game allows players to do anything they want which, again, is not possible.
If you lack the imagination to see what potential these two options have, then I don't think you should be rushing to find option three (if that's what you're trying to do).
"Are games art" is a redundant question, because the answer is yes. As a medium, games are fully capable of being art. The reason why we don't yet have a Citizen Kane is because nobody has made one yet, and the reason why nobody has made one is a result of practical problems, not philosophical (or technological) ones.
It may seem like video games have "grown up," but despite the huge amounts of money involved they're essentially seen as either mindless entertainment or something that the kids do, which means we're unlikely to see any Citizen Kanes in the near future. Animated movies in the West have the same problem, because they too are seen as something meant for children. Meanwhile in Japan, Hayao Miyazaki made Spirited Away, an animated movie that won first prize at the prestigious Berlin International Film Festival, best animated feature at the Oscars and best movie at the Japanese Oscars and something like 30 other awards elsewhere (it was also chosen as one of the year's best movies by none other than Roger Ebert). The medium itself is not the problem, it's the way people treat it. Anything movies can do games can also do (and more), so the real problem, or at least one problem, seems to be that nobody with any storytelling ability is taking games seriously. The fact that Johnny Football Team and his Halo clan are now paying development costs (which are considerable) is not helping at all, and in general gamers aren't a receptive audience for anyone looking to make the game equivalent of Spirited Away.
Michael Eilers:
"The fact that Bioshock kills you, again and again, for failing to interpret the rules and systems of its world correctly and for failing to apply reflexes and chance correctly, is a huge barrier between the art and the art appreciator."
Yes, and this is why I think adventure games are the best way of telling a story. Unfortunately, adventure games are also pretty much dead.
some1 | September 28, 2008 2:43 PM
I'm a bit confused by the author's approach here. Why are the only two options for making games art adaptations and systems of rules?
Art is an attempt to impart meaning (hopefully something insightful and nonobvious about the world) through craft. Roger Ebert's problem with games as an art form is that, by permitting player agency, they cede authorial control. That's what he thinks, anyway. For my part, I think his viewpoint assumes a certain carelessness on the part of game designers. For player freedom to imply loss of control over the meaning of the game, there must be options and consequences that the author did not intend--options and consequences which contradict the intended message of the game (e.g. allowing Ahab to kill Moby Dick).
There is nothing about games as a medium that requires this result. Game designers are by no means required to produce sandbox games devoid of viewpoint--many do so merely to make their games more marketable. A game can present a perfectly satisfying controlled storyline interactively, letting the player gradually uncover meaning through play. It's all about deliberately giving and withholding choices, and carefully crafting the consequences of those choices to impart meaning to the player.
Craig Stern | September 28, 2008 2:58 PM
There's some great discussion going on.
@some1
"I don't understand what point you're trying to make."
The point he's trying to make is that the text has been altered. It no longer holds the initial meaning. It is no longer the initial text. It is the equivalent of a kid with a paintbrush scribbling over Picasso. You can't interpret something that encourages this as artistic. It becomes a tool - it may allow the creation of art, but it is not art itself.
I am in complete agreement with you that the first option ('linear' interactive story) has not been fully explored. I believe it's the only way to create art in this medium, if we wish to compare it to film and literature. I don't believe that offering any choice to the player is in any way beneficial. Stopping and asking people about the world is a terrible idea (and wouldn't you know, it's praised and used by the likes of Bioware). It's needless exposition that could be replaced by another form of interactivity: exploration. It's the simplest form, and the most consistent so far throughout interactive artworks.
I too believe death, as well as rules, objectives and points should be relegated to challenge based or fun based products, not art. Unless death is not a punishment, but a reminder of failure and struggle and of mortality. I hesitate to use this banal example, but Halo's Master Chief shouldn't be able to die. He's supposedly the saviour of mankind and a super soldier. If that game had anything of artistic merit in it, this simple fact would ruin it.
Shadow of the Colossus defines interactive art for me. It's unrivalled (save by Ico) in its medium. Please don't dismiss that opinion as generic. If you'd like, I can tell you why it's the current pinnacle of our medium, and be correct in doing so, unlike many others who list the title. On the other hand we have Miyamoto products, made solely for profit. Not a lick of artistry in them (unless we're talking about aesthetics).
It's an uphill battle.
Grey | September 28, 2008 8:31 PM
Why the hell would we want to make a Moby Dick game?
I understand what you're saying - that the artistry of Moby Dick would be destroyed if it was a game, but that's precisely WHY it was written as a book.
It's got nothing to do with technology - It is entirely possible that in 1851 Melville could have used Moby Dick as a card playing system, or a painting, or a serial in a newspaper.
But he chose a novel format to communicate his art, and I think that's the issue with "games as art" - no one has yet used the medium of the videogame to its full potential in and of itself.
Funky J | September 28, 2008 8:39 PM
@Craig Stern
The thing about player agency, or granting them choice is as follows:
If you have choices that allow for two separate outcomes, then it harms the overall message.
If you have choices that don't deviate from the message, producing superficially different results with identical messages, then the choice may as well not exist.
Two separate events may convey the same thing, but do they fit into the context of every other choice or moment in the game? If not, you've just destroyed your message.
Choice the way we mean it - altering works within set boundaries (in this case, set by the developer) - has been around for a long time. It's the very crux of choose-your-own adventure books for one. It's not unique to this medium, nor is it capable of producing art. It is only capable of creating art-altering tools. Spore and the Sims puts you in the place of the artist.
Grey | September 28, 2008 8:40 PM
It seems that, by Roger Ebert's definition, that a video game must make full use of its interactivity (in particular, the player manipulating the story) in order for it to be art. I think that the story of a game may only play out one way and still be art (and therefore maintain its intent). Why can't a video game just tell a linear story and still be an art form?
Prose, poetry, theatre, opera, and film all are just story telling mediums with their own strengths, why should video games be required to do any more?
The idea of intent is also a fuzzy matter. One reader may read "How do I love thee, let me count the ways" and think it a beautiful ode to a lover, the next reader might see it as a bunch of cliche drivel to score some easy tang. I think multiple interpretations is one of the most interesting things art can do, and some games (and gamers) love it. Take a look at KoTOR, or Fable (or, what Fable promised to be). What's wrong with a different ending? What if Captain Ahab caught his whale, and realized he had no reason left to live. When he killed the whale he killed himself. Upon realizing this he throws himself off a cliff. Now that's a story.
I'm also sad at the lack of mention of the great environmental storytelling of SotC, or the amount of vested interest the players had in the Prince in PoP: Sands of Time (MY OPINION:and conversely, how little I cared for the naive Altair in Assassin's Creed)
What about the idea of art to simply lift the spirit? Where does Katamari fit into all this?
Luke | September 28, 2008 9:43 PM
Grey:
"The point he's trying to make is that the text has been altered. It no longer holds the initial meaning. It is no longer the initial text."
Melville was the original author, so whatever he wrote became the "initial text." He could have written something else entirely.
"Stopping and asking people about the world is a terrible idea (and wouldn't you know, it's praised and used by the likes of Bioware). It's needless exposition that could be replaced by another form of interactivity: exploration. It's the simplest form, and the most consistent so far throughout interactive artworks."
It's not exposition, it's optional information or entertainment. Lots of adventure and roleplaying games are full of optional dialogue and other sources of information that only serve to amuse the player, but are not really important. Unlike in a movie, you're not forced to settle for whatever information the screenplay can cram into two hours, you can look around and talk to people as much or as little as you want (well, provided that the game has the necessary amount of depth to accomodate this).
As for choice in games, it's usually not a good thing, but it can work if the story is specifically written to take advantage of it. RPGs like Fallout are an exception, of course.
some1 | September 29, 2008 3:07 AM
some1:
"Melville was the original author, so whatever he wrote became the 'initial text.' He could have written something else entirely."
I don't see how this excuses a reader that alters it. Melville meant what he wrote in this dimension. It's no longer Melville's if I fill in the hypothetical blanks he left with my pen (this correlates to player choice in the interactive Moby Dick, of course).
That's not to say a version with a successful Ahab wouldn't be a work of art on its own. Is that what you mean? It's just that you can't have one work that allows for two totally opposing messages. It's incoherent. That ending would also have to have context within the rest of the book. It does make it a different story based on the same characters and setting, though.
If the developer doesn't make it compulsary to read/hear/view, then how can it be argued that it aids our understanding or contributes to the art? It's more superfluous material that games can do without. What's wrong with making the player play through a compelling backstory instead of reading about it in some book at the Great Library?
The difference is that the backstory would have to be a coherent component of the overall theme, instead of merely informative or entertaining. The game can still be longer than a two hour film.
Grey | September 29, 2008 3:14 PM
"a cheesy Choose Your Own Adventure affair where no single story can really be granted sole authorial intent."
Please read some decent branching stories / visual novels before making statements like this. Not CYOAs that were written for children's light entertainment and never intended as literature (although a few still managed moments of poignancy) and not porn.
Try Ever 17 or Fatal Hearts as a simple beginning, since your options in English are somewhat limited. Or the movie Sliding Doors, for a perhaps more-familiar example.
It is possible to have branching storylines and still have a story with overall value and message. Sometimes the true story is in the interactions and comparisons between the storylines. The *actual* story is emergent from the experience of playing the different outcomes.
whiner | September 29, 2008 7:27 PM
"I don't see how this excuses a reader that alters it."
It is my understanding that the article was not talking about a reader altering the story, it was talking about a scenario where Melville decided to write the story differently.
"If the developer doesn't make it compulsary to read/hear/view, then how can it be argued that it aids our understanding or contributes to the art?"
It's a video game about a story that takes place in a fictional universe. Not everything in it has to be part of some grand artistic oneupsmanship directed at Roger Ebert.
"It's more superfluous material that games can do without. What's wrong with making the player play through a compelling backstory instead of reading about it in some book at the Great Library?"
It's not a choice between the two. We're talking about providing optional information and experiences that the player can ignore if he wants to. This kind of interactivity is what separates games from movies. If you remove almost all interactive elements then at that point you're really better off just making a movie.
some1 | September 29, 2008 7:40 PM
I had written a beautiful final solution comment, but I will instead just propagate the following:
Mister Ebert (or whatever his name is) is NOT an art critic, he has absolutely no authority on the subject and I understand not why people keep referring to him. Even worse, proclaiming that
"There is a structural reason for that: Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control."
interaction being the core problem of the debate is plain silly showing his complete lack of interest for art as we know it contemporarily.
There is shitloads of interactive art (Marina Abramović if you need a thorough and extreme example of 'player influence' [ Rhythm 0, 1974 ])
The next quote is another beautiful one;
'I mentioned that a Campbell's soup could be art. I was imprecise. Actually, it is Andy Warhol's painting of the label that is art. Would Warhol have considered Clive Barker's video game "Undying" as art? Certainly. He would have kept it in its shrink-wrapped box, placed it inside a Plexiglas display case, mounted it on a pedestal, and labeled it "Video Game."'
in correlation to this
"Of course, I was asking for it. Anything can be art. Even a can of Campbell's soup. What I should have said is that games could not be high art, as I understand it."
The product isn't art, it's the a product as art; campbell's isn't art, it is the gesture that is art. And then, still, he dares to proclaim things as 'high art' not even understanding the concept behind the work whilst abusing the image for the sake of his argument.
Simply put, he is arguing 'art' from a position that reminds me of the nobility Jean-Jacques Rousseau writes of; no fucking idea, only ready to view the same type of shows from their box at the theatre, endlessly complaining about every deviation and progression, and pretending to understand; he is but a movie critic, nothing else.
The man has no clue, if he started the debate, the debate is over.
Alexander | September 30, 2008 3:11 AM
(slight elaboration on the difference in product and label; Warhol perceived the mass-product as an almost messaic entity that broke through all class difference, everyone drank the same coca cola. It is not necessarily his painting, of the label; it's the consideration of 'product', besides being a beautiful reference to Duchamp. It is this autonomy that makes it art, not a simple concept, but the work's position and context.)
Alexander | September 30, 2008 3:20 AM
The flaw in Ebert's complaint was his unfamiliarity with the medium.
First, he concedes that the last game he ever played was Myst. In that regards, if he promises not to base his opinions on games as art on Myst, I won't make any comments about the artistic merits of film based Snow Dogs. Mkay?
Second, I can name a few films that provide several different narratives in the course of their run. In the case of Run Lola Run, you get three different middles and ends to the same setup, and in Rashomon, you get four stories in the middle. What Ebert misses about videogames is that the audience is still locked in to the narratives provided by the authors, much like Lola is locked into her three narratives. He can certainly argue that allowing the audience to pick one of those three somehow devalues the artistic merits of the work, but I'm not buying it, especially when audience members are free to say "I prefer the middle story," or "I think the briefcase contained X," in the case of Pulp Fiction.
I think a better measure for artistic merit is audience engagement. When you look at Citizen Kane, for example, you can appreciate it technically, or narratively, or historically. Ditto for reading Moby Dick, where, to appreciate it, you have any number of different skills and experiences and knowledge bases you can bring to bear while you read. And for modern art, you have to bring everything to the party yourself. The artist will give you nothing.
Thing is, with that definition, video games give that engagement by default. It's not earned, it exists in their very defintion. It's as if paintings were once measured in terms of how realistic they were, and then photographs come along. You then have to look for new techniques and styles and subjects for both painting and photography to rediscover their artistic merits. I would say we're still in that searching phase when it comes to games.
And as for your question as to whether systems can be art? I would suggest that Will Wright's model of urban crime rates as they relate to commercial, residential, and industrial zoning, and property values in SimCity is as much a statement of authorial intent as a grafitti artist painting a mural in a downtown art gallery based on crime statistics in his neighborhood.
bkd69 | September 30, 2008 5:03 AM
Oh, and btw, good cite on Monopoly as a game system as art.
One of the ancestors of Monopoly is the Landlord's Game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord%27s_Game
bkd69 | September 30, 2008 5:11 AM
@Alexander
Thank you for explaining modern art to us unwashed peasants. Next time we'll consult Your Highness before we start having discussions, so we can echo your grandiose thoughts.
The developers need to focus on game play as wholesome experience. Intentionally creating "artsy" games can only lead to failure, as demonstrated by that "marriage" game.
Pokipsy | September 30, 2008 6:09 AM
If you're playing a game like Moby Dick in campaign mode and have the ability to dramatically change the course of events once -- like by mutinying -- then there isn't any more game. And unfortunately that isn't fun.
Alistair | September 30, 2008 8:01 AM
One step we could make toward allowing the software that we call "games" to be considered art is to start calling it by a more prestigious name. The stories told through these simulations and the graphical art used to portray the events are far too important to be considered a "game".
Anon | September 30, 2008 10:09 AM
I'd like to start off with complimenting this take on the years-old discussion...while I can't say with certainty it's the first time it has been explained like this, I can say I haven't heard of these reasons before. Very well spoken.
Of course, I find there is an overall element to the question "are games art?" Specifically...what defines something as "art?" Is it really so simple as to compare a video game of Moby Dick and a book of moby Dick and say one does not become art because of the other?
Games are their own medium of artistic expression. There will be books written purely for profit, while others are crafted lovingly by a dedicated author trying to share a vision in their mind with others; I think it fair to say this is a universal rule.
To make the mistake Roger Ebert makes in denying video games as being "art" is simply arrogant...I have no doubt that he feels strongly in his position, but it again comes to comparing one art form to another. Can I say a poem is not art because it has no picture? Can I denounce the latest summer flick because there's a book I feel is much better than it?
Games cannot be judged through comparison of well established artistic mediums. They are unique in their own right circling around interactivity and immersion, and can only be judged by those to their left and right within that medium of video games.
To me, art is about expression...sharing a point of view, allowing people to explore a world that drifts in your mind, or trying to give them a glimpse into the swirls of color that play out before us in daily life. It matters not if it is carried to me via words, images, music...or a game.
Josh Parker | September 30, 2008 11:56 AM
This is stupid and way too long. Art is communication. Period, that's it. It always has been it always will be. Art is not Paint, or sound, or stone, it's communication that is done via any medium. If you can honestly say that there was zero data communicated with ANY GAME EVER, then games are not art.
This is a stupid debate, go wax philosophy about the meaning of LIFE. Now THAT's an intangible, hard to define concept. Go to a cave and look what our ancestors scribbled on the walls if you wonder what art is...it's not hard to 1-UP them...oh see, 1-UP...where did we see that?
Jeffy | September 30, 2008 12:18 PM
i think everyone is overlooking something: maybe meaning is relative. maybe we are not supposed to learn something about the world but instead about ourselves. i do not mean this in some kind of "deeper meaning of humanity" way, but in a personal understanding of the player. you. me. whoever finishes the story. if you want a game that is simply art and a game, try the original deus ex. it is a very violent cyberpunk thriller. it is also a pacifist's nightmare where one has to buy and manuever other characters to get your desire. it is also a thousand shades between. [note: you can beat deus ex without shooting anyone. like life, it is just really hard to go against the social norm, in this case, murder.] what implants and skills and the complex and pseudo-redundancy and overlap of abilities is also part of its art.
it is not a question of whether games can be art. the real question is can art be personal and still be a comodity? the comment about bioshock poking one for viewing it the wrong way is not really apt. i think it is more akin to an idea like a sculpture. one could take the statue of david and face it at a wall, looking only from the rear. most people would say it was not intended to be viewed that way. are you punished for it? well, no, you just miss a lot of the detail and the common idea of the artist's intent. why? because most of the detail on the human form is forward, not back. bioshock kills you for doing things wrong... sort of. you do not die, you are set back. nothing in the world changes, even the enemy strength does not reset. like a statue facing backward, it just gives you another way to see it. this is more slowly.
before i go, the comment was made that the master chief should not be able to die because he is the saviour of mankind. i will not labor the obvious religious parallels about game heros/antiheros, resurrections, and the cycles of destiny. instead i will say that what makes a hero a hero is not that they cannot die, it is that they do not die. fatalism in gaming is like fatalism anywhere else. we are just very used to the idea that the character we see through in most media cannot die, rather than do not die.
the amazing null | September 30, 2008 1:06 PM
@jeffy:
especially if witnessed by someone other than the author...
@in general:
I think the article fails to declare if it thinks that this is art: "For sale: baby shoes, never worn. - Ernest Hemingway" or if Pollock is an artist or if children can do better art than Picasso, or if rap is music, etc.
It's ridiculous to think that people are still debating if games are art, without making reference to a range of artistry within each medium, nor mentioning that each artFORM has a peculiar strength.
Moreover, it's very easy to dismiss a game about Moby dick in which you play exactly how the Mr. Carless suggests would be AUTOMATICALLY worse than the actual text. I wonder who is going to make that game, and THEN how much art potential it maintains or garners on its own in ITS new Medium.
Purum | September 30, 2008 1:18 PM
@some1
"It is my understanding that the article was not talking..."
If that's the case, nevermind.
"It's a video game about a story that takes place in a fictional universe..."
Definitely disagree. If the universe is interesting, as it should be, everything should contribute to the message/atmosphere/emotion (depending on what you're going for). That doesn't mean talking to every NPC in an RPG, it means that the player must talk to some, but they're all going to convey the same idea. (Not all NPCs across the whole gameworld, but say, in an oppressed village the villagers would all be showing aspects of oppression.)
"This kind of interactivity is what separates games from movies."
No, optional exploration - having a choice as to whether you want to gain a greater understanding of the world isn't what seperates games from movies. Exploration itself is. Interactivity doesn't consist solely of choice, though choice involves interactivity. Ebert makes the same mistake.
Exploration is a great interactive tool. It isn't used enough in the way...Shadow of the Colossus uses it, as an example.
@bkd69
"in Rashomon, you get four stories in the middle."
You have to see all of them in ONE viewing. You don't branch off. Moreover, it's an extension of the unreliable narrator. It needs 4 stories.
I wouldn't mind if a game let you do that - replay what happened in another way - as long as it has the same coherent theme. But granting a choice on which one to view separates the stories and themes.
Or, if they're about the same thing but with different approaches (and no overlap - once you're on one path you can't switch back to the other), it creates 2 different games. Think Iwo Jima and Flags of Our Fathers.
"He can certainly argue that allowing the audience to pick one of those three somehow devalues the artistic merits of the work...audience members are free to say 'I prefer the middle story,'"
Allow me to argue it.
Those viewers are interpreting and giving opinions on the same work. Put simply: if you're granted input, it's no longer the designer's intended work.
The designer puts choice in to fulfill power fantasies. They don't consider message or meaning.
(Yes, we're playing through "their" creation, but in this case the creation is a toolset and sandbox to be manipulated, not of a work of art)
Will Wright's the very definition of a toolset manufacturer.
He's a proponent of emergent gameplay. That's advancement of the medium in the opposite direction. It's not one I agree with, but that's not as relevant to what it is.
@pokipsy
This is obviously going to be unpopular, but maybe the medium doesn't need to be devoted solely to fun/challenging games.
I think it's good for interactive expression, and the inferior use, that is, rule-based games, can still coexist.
@anon
My thoughts exactly. Game gives the wrong impression entirely. Interactive art is free of rules, a need to be fun or challenging, objectives and limitations. So basically, what we associate with the label 'game.'
@the amazing null
"i will not labor the obvious religious parallels about game heros/antiheros, resurrections, and the cycles of destiny."
There are none in Halo. It makes superficial reference to biblical terms and ideas, but that's it.
"fatalism in gaming is like fatalism anywhere else. we are just very used to the idea that the character we see through in most media cannot die, rather than do not die."
Absolutely not.
In most media they can die, but they don't. We're used to the fact that they don't, because it furthers a purpose. If Master Chief or any of the other countless saviors of the planet die, the meaning behind the text is completely altered.
What I meant about Master Chief isn't that he should have some invulnerable armour, but that he would not perish in the course of a game under any circumstances. Of course, this destroys Halo's gameplay premise.
Grey | September 30, 2008 3:50 PM
Grey:
"Definitely disagree. If the universe is interesting, as it should be, everything should contribute to the message/atmosphere/emotion (depending on what you're going for)."
Art for art's sake does not a good video game make, as Jason Rohrer's overrated crap demonstrates (Passage, Gravitation). Again, not every single imaginable aspect in the game has to be some grand statement about the nature of the universe. If you want that kind of a narrow focus, I suggest philosophy.
"That doesn't mean talking to every NPC in an RPG, it means that the player must talk to some, but they're all going to convey the same idea. (Not all NPCs across the whole gameworld, but say, in an oppressed village the villagers would all be showing aspects of oppression.)"
The NPCs in Half-Life 2 all show "aspects of oppression," but there's hardly anything profound or artistic about it. It's just common sense.
"No, optional exploration - having a choice as to whether you want to gain a greater understanding of the world isn't what seperates games from movies. Exploration itself is. Interactivity doesn't consist solely of choice, though choice involves interactivity. Ebert makes the same mistake."
I'm pretty sure being able to move around freely, examine objects and talk to people is something that you can't do while watching a movie. I don't know why you're bringing up Ebert, because the only mistake he made was to think that games somehow grant the player limitless choice.
some1 | September 30, 2008 5:02 PM
I think that the biggest mistake in the debate over "gaming as art" is that it almost exclusively focuses on the notion of 'choice'. For me, the real power of gaming is that it introduces the 1st person perspective in it's purest form. I think the best games make me feel like I'm in the game, despite the fact that they're tightly controlled. HL2 is a great example of this. I felt like Gordan Freeman leading a revolution, despite being guided all the way. Imagine how powerful the story of Oedipus Rex would be if the player had to watch in horror as they stabbed their own eyes out. It would elicit emotions in a way that the written story never could. I imagine that games could be like a very complicated paint-by-numbers: you are guided, step by step, to paint the Mona Lisa. So what if you don't get to choose the color of her eyes? You experience the masterpiece as it happens, firsthand. No other art form can do that.
Games like Spore and The Sims are great games, and awesome creative outlets. They aren't good works of art, though. My view of art is that it's something made with an intent, purpose, and structure by an artist, and then the viewer experiences it. The best art elicits the most powerful experiences because of the choices the artist makes- if the artist gives away too many of the choices to the viewer, then it's no longer good art. It's a good creative outlet for the viewer.
And anyways, I don't think that giving a player the option to alter a story makes the story any better, in the long run. If I'm given the option of reading a gay fan-fiction about Harry Potter as an alternative storyline, does it make the original story any better? No, it just gives me twice as much content, and neither is really improved. Making a great, cohesive story is something that can't really be done if you have too many alternatives. The exception to this is if a story's main theme is 'choice' or 'change' or whatever, naturally.
When we get down to it, for a game to be a true masterpiece, it will need to have all the depth and complexity of a great painting or novel or movie. I think games can certainly do this- we shouldn't sell ourselves short. It's just going to require a realignment of what we are willing to spend our money on. After all, why try to reach the lofty goal of "art", when you can make 10 more Maddens for 100X the profit?
Mindspider | September 30, 2008 6:37 PM
Keep art-schoolers away from video games. The moment you let them in, they'll ruin everything. I mean it. Ebert is actually video games greatest champion. (He used to review computer games for wired.) He loves trash culture (he wrote one of the trashiest movies ever) and does his best to keep it from being invaded by art school douchebags. This fat man is my hero and if he stops Vincent Gallo from making video games at the cost of even more cancer curses it will be a Christ-like sacrifice.
I am serious. Do you really want Vincent Gallo to make video games? That's what will happen if the artistes take over.
Dig Doug | September 30, 2008 7:46 PM
@Mindspider
(I apologise in advance for sounding presumptuous if you don't agree with all my ideas - and I'm not implying that I own them, just that we think alike.)
May I say that seeing your views is like looking in a mirror?
The only thing I don't agree on is a literal 1st person experience. Interactivity can bring you much closer to the characters, but I like my characters to already be developed or to develop in accordance with the artist's idea, not for them to be extensions of myself. I want to guide characters interactively, not become them. I dislike faceless Gordon Freeman for that reason. If you meant 1st person experience as a feeling of being there amongst it all, then disregard what I've said.
@some1
"not every single imaginable aspect in the game has to be some grand statement about the nature of the universe."
Not what I meant.
I don't think a speck of dirt should be a mirror into the soul, I think that minigames, optional bosses and sidequests are out of place in a 'game' that has something to say.
"there's hardly anything profound or artistic about it."
It can be. But in your example, Half-Life 2, the story, tries to be this dystopian masterpiece. Half-Life 2, the game, has a mute run around and back and through and back again to shoot aliens. Oh and he frees the slaves.
"I'm pretty sure being able to move around freely, examine objects and talk to people is something that you can't do while watching a movie."
What's your point? You're describing exploration, an interactive element. You're capable of doing that in my 'mandatory exploration' game and in your 'optional exploration' game. What the player discovers in mine counts because I clearly intended for them to see it. What you put in yours rewards players in another way, but ultimately has no meaning. It's, as you've said, for informative or enjoyment purposes.
"I don't know why you're bringing up Ebert"
He thinks choice is a video game's strength. Not true. They're about interactivity.
Just because the designer limits what the player can do doesn't mean they don't offer up various ways to play through their story. You're foolish to assume everything in the game is intended as a statement. (Unless it's confusion or a statement on the fallacies of current game trying to be art)
Choose-your-own adventure books are a fantastic example. We've had choice, we've tried it, it's failed. Let's move on.
@Dig doug
Vincent Gallo made Buffalo '66. So, yes.
I don't want this medium to remain in cultural obscurity. Graphic novels like Maus and Watchmen are fine but they came decades too late. It's not like games will fall into obscurity without art, thanks to the Playstations and now the Wii; it's that they'll always be the bastard child of entertainment. The medium has amazing potential, and it's just bizarre to see views like yours that WANT progress to be stifled. Relax, you'll still get your blockbuster fix.
Grey | September 30, 2008 8:38 PM
@Jeffy
The problem isn't whether games can be art- kids scribbling with a crayon art making art. The problem is making great art, and in a way that's unique to the medium. We've got this idea, interactivity, and figuring out how to use it to its fullest potential is not a simple or stupid debate at all.
Looking at all the excellent comments I've seen here, I think a lot of people would agree.
@bkd69
Funny, I was thinking about mentioning Run Lola Run for a little while now. I think that it is a perfect example of how a kick-ass game with a theme of "change" could be made: you replay the same story over and over, but slight alterations change the outcome. What would make the theme really potent is the differences you'll notice every time you go through it again.
Wait a second, that reminds me of Majora's Mask...
@Grey
You're right, it looks like we're pretty much on the same page here. However, when I talk about the 1st person, I don't mean to exclude fully realized characters. I just mean that interactivity (if used right) can be used to make an incredibly immersive experience, even if there is no choice given to the player at all.
I kind of want to see more games that make you feel bad, or bittersweet, or guilty. I've been a gamer since the Atari, and I've gotten my fill of 'winning' all the time. Give me more games that make me feel something complicated!
@Dig Doug
As someone who had the fortune (or misfortune) of spending a couple of years in art school, I know where you're coming from. I don't want my favorite past time to be ruined by pretentious art snobs either. Don't mistake "art" for "artsy fartsy", though: it's entirely possible to take gaming seriously as an art form, without filling it with BS.
Mindspider | September 30, 2008 11:08 PM
"I kind of want to see more games that make you feel bad, or bittersweet, or guilty. "
Absolutely. Guilt in particular is something wholly unique to this medium.
Grey | October 1, 2008 3:55 AM
"I don't think a speck of dirt should be a mirror into the soul, I think that minigames, optional bosses and sidequests are out of place in a 'game' that has something to say."
Arbitrary. I don't see how sidequests and other optional content make the game any less "artistic," or why they can't have any meaning.
"It can be. But in your example, Half-Life 2, the story, tries to be this dystopian masterpiece. Half-Life 2, the game, has a mute run around and back and through and back again to shoot aliens. Oh and he frees the slaves."
There just isn't anything amazing about going to a location and finding that everyone has the same thing to say.
"What's your point? You're describing exploration, an interactive element. You're capable of doing that in my 'mandatory exploration' game and in your 'optional exploration' game. What the player discovers in mine counts because I clearly intended for them to see it. What you put in yours rewards players in another way, but ultimately has no meaning. It's, as you've said, for informative or enjoyment purposes."
The entire game is without meaning because there's some optional content, which itself is automatically and arbitrarily meaningless just because it's optional? Uh.
"He thinks choice is a video game's strength."
No, he thinks choice is bad.
"Not true. They're about interactivity. Just because the designer limits what the player can do doesn't mean they don't offer up various ways to play through their story."
Choice is interactivity and interactivity is choice.
"You're foolish to assume everything in the game is intended as a statement."
But this is exactly what *you* keep saying. I keep saying the opposite.
"Choose-your-own adventure books are a fantastic example. We've had choice, we've tried it, it's failed. Let's move on."
Player choice != branching storyline. Furthermore, a branching storyline can be used effectively, and considering the lack of writing ability in the game industry it's ridiculous to say that branching storylines have been exhausted of all possibilities.
"The medium has amazing potential, and it's just bizarre to see views like yours that WANT progress to be stifled."
Placing arbitrary and counter-productive restrictions on game design isn't very progressive either.
some1 | October 1, 2008 8:35 AM
The auteurs are already invading blockbusters. It will not be long before we are bombarded with unskippable cutscenes filled with pretentious drivel, pointless quests that excuse themselves as being trenchant political commentary. (CouGH COUGH Metal Gear Cough COucgh)
The quintessential nature of high art is not communication -- it is fascism, and video games are plenty fascist enough. It won't be long before some "artiste" deploys a game with some creative DRM that destroys your console if you attempt to remove it once inserted and pronounces it a conceptual art piece on "the illusion of control." Or better yet, how about a game called "Privacy" that steals your credit card info and displays it on a billboard in times square as a video collage interspersed with 9-11 footage? "Whoa this game profoundly affected my worldview -- I can feel myself getting gentrified already!"
Let's keep video games trashy and fascist-free.
For SPARTAAAAAA!
P.S. Moby Dick isn't high art. It's glorious, nerdy trash. It even comes with a whale instruction booklet. Total Asperger's writing.
Dig Doug | October 1, 2008 1:04 PM
@some1
"The entire game is without meaning because there's some optional content, which itself is automatically and arbitrarily meaningless just because it's optional? Uh."
It's very hard to believe that the artist is serious about their work if they devote time to a section containing throwaway entertainment.
"Choice is interactivity and interactivity is choice."
Completely false. I see this is the crux of your argument, but please understand that this is in no way true.
Interactivity contains choice as a subset, but does not solely consist of it. Choice is an interactive element.
I don't see how you can interpret slaying the colossus with the Wanderer (in SotC) as the player having a choice. It is interactive, however.
"No, he thinks choice is bad."
The reason he thinks this is because it allows the player and not the artist to direct the work. He is correct. (About choice, not interactivity in general)
"I don't see how sidequests and other optional content make the game any less 'artistic,' or why they can't have any meaning."
I've explained the first point. They can have meaning if the meaning relates to the existence of sidequests i.e. distracting affairs.
They could even have deep, spiritual and insightful things to say. Too bad that the artist lacks focus and doesn't care if you see it or not. Too bad it's ultimately meaningless because of this.
"But this is exactly what *you* keep saying. I keep saying the opposite."
I'm saying that about *your* preferred game - one where the designer offers up choices (the kind Ebert is talking about).
You'd be foolish to assume it in that case.
"...considering the lack of writing ability in the game industry it's ridiculous to say that branching storylines have been exhausted of all possibilities."
That doesn't affect the ability in the choose-your-own adventure book genre. It doesn't matter what quality it is; the 'artist' doesn't consider it significant enough to even provide an intention.
"Player choice != branching storyline."
It's not restricted to it, no. But it is akin to choose-your-own adventure books. Most early "story" games were digital versions of those. We've since built upon them, given them visuals, but it's the exact same template.
"Placing arbitrary and counter-productive restrictions on game design isn't very progressive either."
They *are* progressive, not counter-productive. They're no more restrictive than someone asking films to remove needless elements unrelated to film. I mean, no one had to because it was, from inception, easily accessible. They did have a few missteps, such as filming live versions of newspaper comic strips, but artists knew what they were doing and cinema flourished.
There's a reason that films offering audience choice don't exist (except for a few failures). There's a reason every other medium doesn't offer choice (and they CAN!).
But because many people, including you, have this confused idea that choice = interactivity, we have to suffer through trash when every other medium has already figured it out. Someone has to take the reigns. Look at this mess.
@Dig doug
Oh, you're a joke character. Nevermind then.
Grey | October 1, 2008 1:55 PM
@Grey, oh you're a cultural scavenger who likes to walk into a thriving trash medium and tell it what it's doing wrong, then label everyone who doesn't fit your rubric as pedestrian, or when they are undeniably more compelling, innovative and vital than your chosen champions, consign them to the "outsider art" dustbin and gawk at their provincial ways. Nevermind then.
Critical "Graphic Novelist" darling Chris Ware famously pined for the old days when he was free to operate outside the glare of your high art gaze. Now that comics are being accepted as an artform, we are inundated with voluminous naval gazing auto-bios and faux-peechee scribbles, making the field LESS diverse and LESS innovative. When the most vital, creative work in comics is agreed to be 80+ year old Windsor McCay strips and Japanese porn, you know you've deforested the medium.
Learn their lesson well!
Dig Doug | October 1, 2008 2:47 PM
"It's very hard to believe that the artist is serious about their work if they devote time to a section containing throwaway entertainment."
Huh? Why is it automatically throwaway entertainment because it's optional? Again, that's totally arbitrary.
"Completely false. I see this is the crux of your argument, but please understand that this is in no way true."
If you can't choose where Pacman goes, where's the interaction?
"The reason he thinks this is because it allows the player and not the artist to direct the work. He is correct. (About choice, not interactivity in general)"
He is wrong because any choice the player has is given to him by the artist.
"They could even have deep, spiritual and insightful things to say. Too bad that the artist lacks focus and doesn't care if you see it or not. Too bad it's ultimately meaningless because of this."
Arbitrary. Makes no sense.
"I'm saying that about *your* preferred game - one where the designer offers up choices (the kind Ebert is talking about). You'd be foolish to assume it in that case."
Again, you're the one who keeps insisting that everything must have meaning, I keep insisting the opposite. Don't attribute your own arguments to me.
"That doesn't affect the ability in the choose-your-own adventure book genre. It doesn't matter what quality it is; the 'artist' doesn't consider it significant enough to even provide an intention."
We're talking about video games, not choose-your-own adventure books.
"They *are* progressive, not counter-productive. They're no more restrictive than someone asking films to remove needless elements unrelated to film."
Films have short running times, games do not. Different mediums.
"But because many people, including you, have this confused idea that choice = interactivity, we have to suffer through trash when every other medium has already figured it out."
Books and films were never supposed to be interactive, and are not based on it. Games are.
"Someone has to take the reigns. Look at this mess."
And that someone isn't going to be you, because you don't understand video games.
some1 | October 1, 2008 5:52 PM
@Dig doug
I just assumed you were baiting people. I mean, high art is fascism?
No. High art is Tarkovsky. It's Bresson and it's Hemingway. It's insight into the human condition. It's something wonderful. I share your dismay at people who can't ever bring themselves to give the time of day to trashy schlock like Pulp Fiction or popcorn entertainment like Iron Man, but I pity the person who rejects the opposite end of that spectrum as an attack or a threat. They know it exists, and instead of embracing it, they detest it. They don't understand that creativity is encouraged, not stifled.
Guts to be you.
@some1
"Huh? Why is it automatically throwaway entertainment because it's optional? Again, that's totally arbitrary."
Every possible response (including the one you typed up) that you could've had to the statement you quoted can be found in my last post. I won't reiterate. You've called them arbitrary when they're absolutely legitimate arguments.
Here's an example now:
"Arbitrary. Makes no sense."
My argument is reasoned. Makes perfect sense.
"He is wrong because any choice the player has is given to him by the artist."
I've explained this, but not well, I confess.
This is my quote:
"Just because the designer limits what the player can do doesn't mean they don't offer up various ways to play through their story."
What I'm saying is that even though the designer created a sandbox, they didn't create a route through it that must be travelled. Therefore, they're still offering choice. They're allowing you to play around with their preset tools. You create your own stories, your own art. The designer has created tools and provided you with them. They haven't created art.
"Again, you're the one who keeps insisting that everything must have meaning, I keep insisting the opposite. Don't attribute your own arguments to me."
Well then this is the problem. As soon as you accept that those games will never be art, because meaning is a requisite of art, then we can end the argument. I'm arguing against choice in art. You're arguing for? If that's the case then I simply assumed you knew that art had to express something.
"If you can't choose where Pacman goes, where's the interaction?"
You can't choose what the Wanderer does or where he goes in SotC. There's clearly interaction in that. You can choose where Pacman goes. In fact, you *have* to choose in order to play; the game is designed around choice. Like I said, choice is a subset of interactivity. And naturally, interactivity does not have to feature choice. Your argument disproves nothing.
"Films have short running times, games do not. Different mediums."
So because they're longer they need filler? They don't have to be long either, just as all films didn't need to last 10 hours like the original cut of Greed. We certainly can't accurately control pacing in games, but we can cut down what's there to the essentials. That'd be a start.
"We're talking about video games, not choose-your-own adventure books."
We're talking about quality writing, actually. You said there's none in games implying branching storylines haven't really had a chance to take off. I argued that CYO adventure books, which contain branching storylines, are exemplary of writing ability not being a factor. You could have F. Scott Fitzgerald write one and it wouldn't mean anything because it's there for the player to...play with, not as a statement. With Fitzgerald we'd have prettier, glossier tools, but they'd still be tools with which to build.
"Books and films were never supposed to be interactive, and are not based on it. Games are."
That's true. They've never had the kind of interactivity we have with which to work. Choice has always been there, but having the audience perform actions has not. The difference is that we have a broader range of interactive elements, and we squander them in favour of age-old choice.
"And that someone isn't going to be you, because you don't understand video games."
I don't care about video games. I understand them fine, but I don't care about them. I care about the potential the interactive-visual medium has and how it doesn't have to be limited to video games.
Grey | October 1, 2008 9:51 PM
@Grey
The essentially fascist nature of art is well accepted in critical theory, to the point where it is repeated with some measure of snarky pride. Tarkovsky, Bresson, Hemmingway, fascists every one. Their goal: to hold their audiences captive, to subject them to their worldview. "Insight into the human condition" is euphemism for indoctrination. It's not YOUR insight, is it? It's the artist's. It's Tarkovsky's plodding fatalism, it's Bresson's circus of pathos, it's Hemmingway's drunken machismo. This is what Ebert refers to as authorial control. We submit to art. Democracy is essentially incompatible with art -- it's its definitional opposite. And that is what games offer: frivolous, embarrassing, juvenile, glorious democracy. The rules are there to give voice to the players, NOT the game creator, and you want to rob it from them, to hogtie them, and subject games to the same lopsided power dynamic as all other media.
It's quite telling that what you're interested in is not video games but an "interactive-visual medium" a practically Wagnerian proposition where subjects are immersed into a multi-sensory pool at the mercy of the author.
I tell you such installations will be more appropriate for Abu Ghraib than the MOMA.
Let us reclaim video games for video game players! Death to DRM! Up with mods and cheat codes!
And lest you get snooty again, anything that high art is able to do is possible in and (likely stolen from) trash. The flattening of culture is due to high art's inability to sustain itself without cannibalizing trash's vital essence. No wonder it has its sights set on the potency of video games. BACK, I SAY! BACK, FOUL DEMON!
Dig Doug | October 2, 2008 12:12 AM
"I don't care about video games. I understand them fine, but I don't care about them."
You don't understand them AND you don't care about them? Maybe you shouldn't be discussing this subject.
some1 | October 2, 2008 2:50 AM
Well, I'm glad that you're more knowledgable than you last gave off. You're no less misguided.
I also like how my proposition will rob and hogtie players while yours will rescue them from the hell of submission.
"Their goal: to hold their audiences captive, to subject them to their worldview. 'Insight into the human condition' is euphemism for indoctrination."
They do have a distinct worldview. They don't ask you to agree - they don't manipulate - but they are persuasive. Insight into the human condition is just that. They might endow even you with some semblance of culture. I jest. But what I don't care for is someone to say that art (high or otherwise) limits diversity and innovation. Innovation in particular is in no way limited to the lower levels of a medium. Paradigm shifting innovation (the kind I assume Mr. Ware and yourself detest, since it bursts the proverbial bubble) happens, more often than not, at the top.
Your resilience to change has a lot to do with your indulgence in "lesser" works. Mindless but entertaining activities. Everyone needs those. That's why they won't disappear. You're not an artist, are you? What do you care of Chris Ware's plight? I can see you detest other peoples' beliefs being presented with some degree of authority (I'm talking about artists, not me), but what does that leave for enjoyment?
Let me be clear: video games are not a medium. They're the hentai or the exploitation flicks of the interactive-visual. They're often more refined because they've had so much more practice than those other media. They've reached mediocrity's roof. There isn't anything in them that someone will remember in a century from now. It'll be as if they never existed.
And allow me to get snooty on you. Pulp Fiction (trash) stole from early Godard and French New Wave (high art). Maybe high art is undesireable if it inspires trash. But trash can only take influence, not diminish the original oeuvre.
Worry less about saving the common man from these demons and focus more on savouring the last moments you'll have with another precious medium before us fascists take over.
Keep in mind that Abu Ghraib is the product of democracy and FREEEEEEDOOOOOM! and whatnot.
Grey | October 2, 2008 3:32 AM
"You don't understand them AND you don't care about them? Maybe you shouldn't be discussing this subject."
I suppose that's an easy way out for you. So long.
Grey | October 2, 2008 3:35 AM
I actually had a more detailed reply typed out, but then I reached the last paragraph...
It was an easy way out, but you provided it for me.
some1 | October 2, 2008 6:34 AM
1. Who are we to argue with someone who thinks the Bush administration operates as a democracy?
2. If French New Wave is allowed to pilfer from pop culture, then Breathless must be judged to be just as trashy a pastiche as Pulp Fiction. (And your citation of French New Wave is particularly inept if you want to argue that high art is distinct from the fascist essence of Auteurism) Once you understand that high art is simply gentrified trash, you'll see why it is necessarily more restrictive, more soul-sucking an arena than its swarthier counterparts in the muck. If tiring of exploiting one type of trash and moving to another as this year's fashion is your idea of change, then please do take your cultural pilfery elsewhere -- I hear Katrina victims have done some AMAZING work in makeshift architecture.
3. Again more double-speak: Paradigm-shift as codeword for Regime Change. You argue against art's fascist nature, but then you glorify rules handed down from above. A dialectic worthy of Mao, another artist you may have heard of. (It is often observed, to the point of cliche, the artistic aspirations of a startling number of dictators.) Video games have enough of these problems based on the realities of commerce, without an art contingent butting in with its own BS criteria.
4. There is a long history of "interactive visual art" that predates "video games." It is hardly in its infancy, has had many years to refine itself, and has so far produced NO works that have penetrated public consciousness, unless you count the Twin Towers attacks and its accompanying OBL tapes as a performance art piece (which many art critics do with no trace of irony). The latest fashion seems to be poaching the iconography and structure of video games, and indeed, let's hope this latest trend is abandoned and forgotten 2 weeks, much less 100 years from now.
Sorry dude, Pac Man wins: Man of the Century. Though no doubt you'll try to claim him as your own as a "hyperaware self-critique of modern captialism and its compulsion to consume"
Dig Doug | October 2, 2008 10:48 AM
I like you. You're interesting. You seem to enjoy games, unlike some1.
You're wrong about interactive visual art having a foundation dating back to before video games, and about art in general. It's nice and all to talk in absolutes and rebellious but popular accusations like 'America is not a democracy' right now, sure. But you've got time.
Grey | October 2, 2008 1:36 PM
Grey, why do you keep attributing your own arguments to other people? YOU are the one who said you don't enjoy games. Not me.
some1 | October 3, 2008 3:52 AM
I thought you left after conceding the argument.
The question you meant to ask was "Why do you think I, some1, don't like games?"
It's the impression that you give off. You'd rather control them than play them. I'd rather evolve them than let them regress.
Grey | October 3, 2008 3:20 PM
I didn't know they have Internet access on Planet Bizarro (population: you).
Why do you continue attributing your arguments to me? You are the one who keeps coming up with arbitrary rules and restrictions. You are the one who said you don't care about games. You are the one who wants to control and de-evolve games.
some1 | October 3, 2008 10:30 PM
Swing and a miss. And a miss And a miss. And a miss. Not one of the things you said were true.
Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
Grey | October 4, 2008 1:24 PM
It is hardly embarrasing to point out the fact that you constantly attribute your own arguments to other people.
And yes, all of the things I said are true. In this thread you have presented numerous restrictions that should be applied to games, you have said you don't care about games and you have presented ideas that would result in the de-evolution of video games.
some1 | October 5, 2008 12:57 AM
They aren't arbitrary restrictions. I didn't say I don't enjoy games, so I clearly could not have attributed it to anyone else.
The ideas would evolve the medium; yours would suppress it. Oh but you're right, I did say I didn't care about games. Good to see you're able to parrot when you can't make a coherent, rational argument.
If you'd like to address the points you dismissed with another lie (I understand games perfectly, as I've told you - you must not have heard me) back up there, do so. If not, we're finished.
Grey | October 5, 2008 12:31 PM
"They aren't arbitrary restrictions."
Getting rid of optional content due to arbitrary reasons actually is arbitrary.
"I didn't say I don't enjoy games, so I clearly could not have attributed it to anyone else."
You said you don't care about them.
"The ideas would evolve the medium; yours would suppress it."
You propose that content and features should be removed and interactivity and freedom reduced. You don't understand what makes video games different from movies and books and what kind of advantages the medium has over them. I'm not the one who's proposing restrictions.
"Oh but you're right, I did say I didn't care about games. Good to see you're able to parrot when you can't make a coherent, rational argument."
How is it "parroting" when I say that you've said XYZ and then point out that you have indeed said XYZ? How is that not a coherent, rational argument?
"I understand games perfectly, as I've told you - you must not have heard me"
You've demonstrated otherwise. Over and over again.
some1 | October 5, 2008 7:35 PM
So, wrong on all counts.
We've been over this. They're not arbitrary restrictions, you just disagree with the rational reasons and attribute your word-of-the-week to them; you're *wrong*.
I propose needless filler be removed. What makes the medium unique is interactivity, not choice. You fail to understand this incredibly simple *fact.* It's not unique in that non-linear art can work. It can never work because of basic principles that you fail to comprehend. My ideas play this strength up, yours are the same we've had forever. Yours are the ones that have failed time and time again (re:CYO adventure books). You're *wrong.*
And I obviously understand games (clearly to a greater extent than you); you're *wrong.*
Except where I said I don't care about games - I said that, yes. Somewhere inside your mind, something went horribly wrong and that sentence became "I don't enjoy games." No, *you* don't enjoy games. Your continued argument makes it seem as though you despise them. I don't care about what is currently throwaway entertainment, but I partake in it.
How can *you* supposedly care about games but detest them so? Don't answer that, just leave.
Grey | October 6, 2008 2:27 AM
"We've been over this. They're not arbitrary restrictions, you just disagree with the rational reasons and attribute your word-of-the-week to them; you're *wrong*."
No, they're just arbitrary.
"I propose needless filler be removed."
It's not needless filler.
"What makes the medium unique is interactivity, not choice. You fail to understand this incredibly simple *fact.*"
If the player can't choose anything then there isn't much interactivity going on.
"It's not unique in that non-linear art can work. It can never work because of basic principles that you fail to comprehend."
See, it's statements like this that prove you don't know what you're talking about. You suffer from a complete lack of imagination.
"My ideas play this strength up, yours are the same we've had forever. Yours are the ones that have failed time and time again (re:CYO adventure books). You're *wrong.*"
Again, you have no imagination and therefore can't comprehend how a non-linear story could work. You can't think of anything new, you can only restrict and limit what we already have.
"Except where I said I don't care about games - I said that, yes. Somewhere inside your mind, something went horribly wrong and that sentence became "I don't enjoy games.""
What's the difference?
"No, *you* don't enjoy games."
This is not based on anything. You're just projecting.
"How can *you* supposedly care about games but detest them so? Don't answer that, just leave.
Make me.
If your awesome philosophies were applied to, say, Grim Fandango, it would turn into a movie where you occasionally get to do something. It would be awful. And what, exactly, would be gained in the process? Nothing whatsoever.
Games are meant to be played, not watched. They are not movies.
some1 | October 6, 2008 3:00 AM
"No, they're just arbitrary."
The word is rational. Or logical. Please expand your vocabulary so as to best describe my propositions.
Now, your labelling of my propositions as arbitrary is ironically the only thing that actually is arbitrary. There is no rhyme or reason as to why you can't understand how things work and have worked since the dawn of art.
"It's not needless filler."
Doesn't contribute to message or art = needless filler.
"If the player can't choose anything then there isn't much interactivity going on."
"What's the difference?"
Thank you for proving the statements you quoted.
"Make me."
All I can hope for is that you're not as thick-headed and close-minded in real life, as you won't have a chance once you graduate from high school.
"This is not based on anything. You're just projecting."
It's based on your desire to see them fail so horribly. To see them stagnate and even devolve. And that's based on your horrendous ideas for "evolution" which you are so sure are correct. *Shudder*
You haven't learnt from the mistakes games have already made.
"you have no imagination and therefore can't comprehend how a non-linear story could work. You can't think of anything new, you can only restrict and limit what we already have."
How can you spew this utter drivel? I know how a non-linear story works. I know it can't be art (and that's not an invitation for you to list films with non-chronological stories or films that ask 'what if?' - If you thought of those immediately, you know you're not ready for the big leagues.
What we already have has failed as art. How do you not understand that? Your ideas have already been tested in various different mediums and have failed. This medium is no different in that respect. Stop treating it as such. Its strength is interactivity, not choice.
"Games are meant to be played, not watched. They are not movies."
And so you've reached a fact I've known for years.
My idea sees stories told interactively. Through player input. What I limit is the story told. Your tangent shows how you fail time again in grasping yet another simple concept.
For some reason, you don't think that authorial intent is necessary in art. It is. No sane person would argue this. Sidequests, branching paths, *optional* elements - none of that could have meaning attached. If the artist doesn't care whether you see it, it can't be a part of the coherent message.
If you accept that your idea could never be art (after all, it's the same as we've always had and your kind of games aren't accepted), then we've nothing else to discuss.
Grey | October 6, 2008 6:34 PM
"The word is rational. Or logical. Please expand your vocabulary so as to best describe my propositions."
No need. Arbitrary is accurate.
"Doesn't contribute to message or art = needless filler."
Not everything has to contribute to the "message" or "art."
"All I can hope for is that you're not as thick-headed and close-minded in real life, as you won't have a chance once you graduate from high school."
What? Are people in your society still in high school in their mid-twenties? I guess that explains a few things.
"It's based on your desire to see them fail so horribly. To see them stagnate and even devolve."
Oh look, you're projecting again.
"How can you spew this utter drivel?"
Because it's true. You have no imagination.
"My idea sees stories told interactively."
What interactivity? Your idea sees games stripped of everything that makes them worth playing and experiencing. Interactive movies are not fun.
"For some reason, you don't think that authorial intent is necessary in art."
Again, any choice given to the player is necessarily created by the author.
"Sidequests, branching paths, *optional* elements - none of that could have meaning attached."
See, this is exactly what I mean when I say your arguments are arbitrary. This is not based on anything, it's a completely random statement.
"If the artist doesn't care whether you see it, it can't be a part of the coherent message."
Again, not everything has to be.
If you made a movie it would probably be something like Dogville, except even more minimalistic. Only the "message" matters, see. Everything else, like sets, wardrobes, lighting, cinematography and editing can be dumped. Probably character development too.
some1 | October 6, 2008 7:17 PM
We don't even have to imagine what a game made using the Grey Method would look like, because we already have Gravitation and Passage which perfectly implement it. They are almost completely stripped of content and gameplay and only have the all-important "message." Truly an evolution of video gaming.
some1 | October 6, 2008 7:38 PM
The example of a game made by "my" methods is Shadow of the Colossus. I keep saying that. Is it interactive? No argument. Is it art? No argument. You could easily remove the time attack, make the Shaman approaching cutscene playable, and the fruit/lizard collecting (time attack does away with it anyway).
Oh, but then it wouldn't be *fun* for you. God, you are a shallow little boy.
All you've done is repeat each and every argument you had after I shut them down. And I anticipate the exact same thing to happen again. The past 5 posts see you COMPLETELY ignore valid, well constructed arguments because they pose a threat to your irrational train of though. You fail to understand simple concepts and prove me right in saying that and in saying that you despise games each and every time you repeat yourself!
I'm sure you'd enjoy Picassos painted with your ideas. There's a picture of a duck attached to the side of the painting, in case you don't want to look at the Picasso.
I'm sure you'd *adore* the movie Clue, with its audience chosen endings. Much better than one of those fancy schmancy movies that means something.
I'm sure you're an avid collector of choose-your-own adventure books and the rest of us just haven't *seen* the true artistic potential, right?
You're incredibly ignorant and arrogant. Finish high school (your non-denial, among other things, confirms your whereabouts) and come back with some perspective.
Grey | October 7, 2008 12:23 PM
"Oh, but then it wouldn't be *fun* for you. God, you are a shallow little boy."
You truly are the master of the arbitrary. There should be an award of some kind.
"All you've done is repeat each and every argument you had after I shut them down."
You haven't shut anything down.
"COMPLETELY ignore valid, well constructed arguments because they pose a threat to your irrational train of though."
I tend to ignore arbitrary weirdness, yes.
"You fail to understand simple concepts and prove me right in saying that and in saying that you despise games each and every time you repeat yourself!"
There you go projecting again.
"I'm sure you'd *adore* the movie Clue, with its audience chosen endings. Much better than one of those fancy schmancy movies that means something."
I never said movies should be interactive. I was talking about games. I also never said, at any point, that a story cannot or should not mean anything.
"I'm sure you're an avid collector of choose-your-own adventure books and the rest of us just haven't *seen* the true artistic potential, right?"
Correct. You lack imagination.
"You're incredibly ignorant and arrogant. Finish high school (your non-denial, among other things, confirms your whereabouts) and come back with some perspective."
Where do you live? It seems pretty weird that people in their mid-twenties would go to high school over there.
some1 | October 7, 2008 12:58 PM
That's enough out of you, kid.
You're flailing. You don't want to be wrong, and you think that's all it takes. You're not persistent; you're arrogant and stubborn.
Keep up the broken record schtick and ignore every argument that destroys yours. You may be in your mid twenties, but your arguments, judgements and knowledge are akin to a high schooler.
I'll do your next post so you don't have to bother (really, don't bother):
Some1:
"Arbitrary."
"Projecting."
*Ignore arguments* (I guess that's your backhanded way of telling me you've conceded a point).
"No imagination."
*Repeats*
Grey | October 8, 2008 11:25 PM
Can't argue with opinion, kid, and that's all you've got left. It's not that it's wrong; it's just a terrible, misguided opinion. But, mid twenties? You, like Doug over there will have time to mature.
grey | October 8, 2008 11:28 PM
"That's enough out of you, kid."
You must be projecting since it has already been established that I can't be a "kid."
"You're flailing. You don't want to be wrong, and you think that's all it takes. You're not persistent; you're arrogant and stubborn."
Translation: "he won't admit that I'm right! HOW DARE HE!"
"Keep up the broken record schtick and ignore every argument that destroys yours. You may be in your mid twenties, but your arguments, judgements and knowledge are akin to a high schooler."
Projection sure is fun.
So eventually your argument simply boils down to "you're a kid and you smell, wah wah." I guess that's to be expected since you couldn't justify your arbitrary bullshit.
some1 | October 9, 2008 2:54 AM
Well, there ya go. Lost your temper already. I predicted your post almost verbatim.
I hate to use other people, but tell all those actual artists that their "restrictions" are arbitrary. Honestly, you still have no clue what you're on about and it doesn't seem like you ever will.
I suppose it's how you have fun - you try to rile people up over the internet by throwing the same argument out there a few hundred times. You're the joke character, aren't you.
I will say that you have *absolutely no basis* from which to judge "my" ideas as arbitrary when they're accepted everywhere else.
The burden of proof is on *you,* and arguments need substance. Arguments can't just be "it's arbitrary because I say it is. IT IS IT IS IT IS IT IS!!!" You can't have an opinion on that - it's a fact that reasons behind "my" ideas are well reasoned, logical and legitimate.
You're gonna *hate* where games are going if your moronic and evangelical stance on them here is any indication. The tears streaming down your face will be beautiful.
I love how you shy away from your awful examples of games operating under your limited principles when I bring up Shadow of the Colossus. You haven't even played it, have you. What are you even doing here then?
Grey | October 9, 2008 12:34 PM
"Well, there ya go. Lost your temper already."
Uh, no I didn't? You're talking about yourself. Again.
"I hate to use other people, but tell all those actual artists that their "restrictions" are arbitrary."
If they follow your philosophy then their restrictions must be arbitrary.
"Honestly, you still have no clue what you're on about and it doesn't seem like you ever will."
And the projection continues!
"I suppose it's how you have fun - you try to rile people up over the internet by throwing the same argument out there a few hundred times. You're the joke character, aren't you."
No. Try again.
"I will say that you have *absolutely no basis* from which to judge "my" ideas as arbitrary when they're accepted everywhere else."
They're not accepted everywhere else. Are you delusional as well?
"The burden of proof is on *you,* and arguments need substance."
You're the one who's spouting arbitrary nonsense.
"it's a fact that reasons behind "my" ideas are well reasoned, logical and legitimate."
Uh huh.
"You're gonna *hate* where games are going if your moronic and evangelical stance on them here is any indication."
You are once again projecting. You are, as has been established over and over again, the one who is continuously insisting on limiting and restricting games. Not me.
"I love how you shy away from your awful examples of games operating under your limited principles when I bring up Shadow of the Colossus. You haven't even played it, have you. What are you even doing here then?"
So yeah, this is you being arbitrary again. Suddenly playing SotC is a requirement for posting on this site? What the christ.
Comment moderation is for losers.
some1 | October 10, 2008 10:38 AM
... and now moderation is turned off again?
some1 | October 10, 2008 10:40 AM
Cool, repetition it is. Sotc is vital to someone's understanding of art games, and it explains *so much* that you've never experienced it. Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance. I'm not delusional - you're projecting. You're talking about yourself. Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about.
Once you come up with something new to say, I'll change this template.
Grey | October 10, 2008 1:23 PM
SotC isn't vital to anything. You're being arbitrary again.
"Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance."
And now you have to resort to appealing to the majority (or rather, what you perceive to be the majority). Nice going.
"I'm not delusional - you're projecting."
Irony alert.
"Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about."
You once again demonstrate your profound lack of understanding. You just can't seem to figure out that games are not movies or books.
some1 | October 11, 2008 4:09 AM
Cool, repetition it is. Sotc is vital to someone's understanding of art games, and it explains *so much* that you've never experienced it. Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance. I'm not delusional - you're projecting. You're talking about yourself. Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about.
Once you come up with something new to say, I'll change this template.
Grey | October 11, 2008 12:53 PM
SotC isn't vital to anything. You're being arbitrary again.
"Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance."
And now you have to resort to appealing to the majority (or rather, what you perceive to be the majority). Nice going.
"I'm not delusional - you're projecting."
Irony alert.
"Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about."
You once again demonstrate your profound lack of understanding. You just can't seem to figure out that games are not movies or books.
some1 | October 12, 2008 4:43 AM
Cool, repetition it is. Sotc is vital to someone's understanding of art games, and it explains *so much* that you've never experienced it. Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance. I'm not delusional - you're projecting. You're talking about yourself. Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about.
Once you come up with something new to say, I'll change this template.
Grey | October 12, 2008 8:29 PM
Some1 says:
"SotC isn't vital to anything. You're being arbitrary again.
"Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance."
(And now you have to resort to appealing to the majority.) I'm a complete moron.
"I'm not delusional - you're projecting."
Irony alert.
"Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about."
You once again demonstrate your profound lack of understanding. You just can't seem to figure out that games are not movies or books."
^^^
Cool, repetition it is. Sotc is vital to someone's understanding of art games, and it explains *so much* that you've never experienced it. Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance. I'm not delusional - you're projecting. You're talking about yourself. Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about.
Once you come up with something new to say, I'll change this template.
Grey | October 12, 2008 8:35 PM
Oh dear. He seems to have finally lost his marbles.
some1 | October 14, 2008 4:48 PM
Cool, repetition it is. Sotc is vital to someone's understanding of art games, and it explains *so much* that you've never experienced it. Everything I said stands; all your defences and arguments have failed miserably so far, especially when you can't accept that you're alone on your stance. I'm not delusional - you're projecting. You're talking about yourself. Other media already successfully carry out the ideas I've told you about.
Once you come up with something new to say, I'll change this template.
Grey | October 14, 2008 8:23 PM
Sorry, but, for the videogames to be considered art, they cannot ONLY have examples such as Citizen Kane. Un Chien Andalou is also part of it, although it's not the only one.
What I mean is: the day ONE video game reaches a visual excellence such as films of Stan Brakhage and Norman McLaren, or a narrative level such as films of Tarkovski and Bergman, that will be art.
Karl | January 20, 2009 2:35 AM