['Quiz Me Quik' is a weekly GameSetWatch column by journalist Alistair Wallis, in which he picks offbeat subjects in the game business and interviews them about their business, their perspective, and their unique view of life. This time - a look into the art game world with Tale Of Tales.]
Possibly one of the more interesting things that came up during this interview with Belgium based indie development duo Tale of Tales was the idea that they are, effectively, experimental outsiders in the games industry simply because of their focus on story based, artistically motivated work.
Isn't that weird? Can you imagine what the film industry would be like if narrative works were substantially less popular than action based films?
Well, okay, maybe that's a bad example, given the films that tend to come out on top at the box office these days, but you get the point.
The studio, comprised of Auriea Harvey and Michaël Samyn, admit that this isn't even something that's occurred to them before now. In fact, they consider what they do an “extremely traditional approach”, at least from the perspective of other medium, like cinema and music.
Then again, you get the idea from talking to them that maybe they're pretty used to being the outsiders at this point. Their favourite games are all at least five years old, proof that “a certain consolidation is happening where the big game companies are happy producing braindead toys for the masses”. Indie companies, for the most part are “creating braindead toys for the cliques”. Yeah, they're probably not exactly gunning for the Christmas card list, at this point.
But what would you expect from a group whose most commercial – for lack of better word – work is The Endless Forest, an MMO where the description is “You are a deer. So are the other players. You meet each other in an endless forest on the Internet. The setting is idyllic, the atmosphere peaceful. You communicate with one another through sounds and body language”? It's a bit bonkers, but gloriously so: wonderfully, artistically so.
They've also just started writing up a blog detailing the development of their next game, The Path, due in early 2009. So, we decided to chat with Harvey and Samyn about their beginnings, their somewhat provocative views on the industry, and why teenage boys find it a complete affront to their delicate sexuality to be asked to jump around as deer.
GSW: When did you start working together? Did you immediately start working under the name Tales of Tales?
Tale of Tales: We started working together in 1999 under the name of "Entropy8Zuper!" which was the merger of entrop8.com and zuper.com into entropy8zuper.org. We created Internet art and web-design. We were fairly well known in media art circles. A lot of our work was inspired by games. And we even made a few real-time 3D web-projects - one commissioned by the San Francisco MOMA. But it wasn't until 2002 that we started thinking about actually making games. A year later we founded Tale of Tales.
GSW: What got you thinking about games as an expressive medium?
ToT: It's important to make a distinction between games as such and video or computer games, when answering this. Because, even though we had used game-like elements in our web-based work, when switching to real-time 3D we had no interest at all in making actual games. For us computer games have always been something different.
Playing computer games has always been about immersion and characters and stories. The best video games were the ones that just let us enjoy these elements. But sadly, most video games, sooner or later, stopped us from enjoying ourselves - from playing - by confronting us with the rules and goals of the actual game, often by either making our character die or by blocking our progress with some inane puzzle.
So, for us, computer games have always been an expressive medium. Except for the "game" part, which destroyed the expression. Thus it was only logical for us to create video games that focused on this expression and to remove everything that did no contribute to the immersion and atmosphere.
GSW: Was your goal of embedding real-time 3D as an artistic medium one of your intentions from the beginning?
ToT: We have always been artists. We were making art with other media before. We chose real-time 3D because we thought it would be a good technology for the kind of art we wanted to make.
GSW: What was the first project you worked on?
ToT: Our relationship started by uploading Dynamic HTML love letters for each other to a common server. Later we made this "conversation" public as . It's still available from there.
But that was long before we started making games. As Tale of Tales, our first project was 8: a dreamy game that takes place in the palace of Sleeping Beauty during the 100 years of sleep. We haven't been able to finish this project because it requires a larger budget than anyone trusts us with, for now.
GSW: I assume your budgets are growing over time, though?
ToT: Actually, it's the opposite. The first arts funding we got was the largest we ever got. That was for our first game project, 8. Recently we have only been able to get much smaller budgets. This had more to do with a shift in the kind of people that are in the jury than anything else though.
But arts funding would never suffice for real video game production anyway. 8 was designed to be developed within the games industry, even if it was initiated within an media arts context. But so far, we haven't worked with any games industry funding yet. Which is odd, because it's not like our work does not benefit the games industry.
We're doing a lot of pioneering that could help everybody in the long run. So, I don't quite understand why the big players like EA and Ubisoft or even Valve or Konami don't invite independent game makers to create a project with them - for a fraction of the budgets that they are used to spending on games, we could make something that takes their entire company years ahead, conceptually.
To their credit, I must say that Sony has been talking with us - and some other developers as well - about small experimental productions for the PlayStation Network that they would fund. So somebody is doing it right.
GSW: Do you consider yourselves primarily artists?
ToT: Yes. But not necessarily in the elitist contemporary fine arts sense of the word. More in the sense that the expression, the meaning of what we make, comes first, before the technology, before the commerce, before the entertainment. But that doesn't mean that we exclude all these things. It's just a matter of priorities. Making games is only an art form when there are people who are making art with games. You know, like: on purpose.
Everybody who makes games, or at least the people in charge of the design and the story, should be an artist. We don't see much point to the whole thing otherwise. Otherwise you're just shipping products.
GSW: Product is an unavoidable part of the medium to a degree, though.
Of course. Because the high production budgets and low consumer prices require you to sell a lot of copies. We have no problem with the selling of art works to people. That's great.
It's just when the process is reversed, when people start designing these things for the purpose of selling them, that you fall into an industrial production logic. Which is hurting the entire industry because it is hampering creative progress.
Also, and perhaps more importantly, it's a matter of task division. It is absolutely vital for a marketing or sales person to think of commercial aspects first, to think of selling as much copies as required. That is their job. But a game director or artist should be focused on achieving the highest level of quality and usability. At the moment the games industry does a very poor job in allowing creative people to do what they are good at.
The industry forces everybody to think of the bottom line all the time. Even if they're not equipped to do so. It's another sign of its immaturity.
GSW: What would you say are your primary influences?
ToT: Figurative painting - renaissance, baroque, romanticist, symbolist - the Saint Bavo Cathedral in our home town of Gent, Belgium, films by Wong Kar Wai, Ingmar Bergman, Hal Hartley. And then there's a few video games: Silent Hill, Project Zero, Ico, Black and White.
GSW: It seems safe to say that you appreciate atmosphere and character, then. Particularly with the games that you've mentioned, they focus on location as a hugely important part of the overall experience. Ico's castle is arguably as vital a character as its two protagonists.
ToT: It's about situations. A character in an environment. That's where the story starts. A deer on its own is moderately interesting. But a deer in a forest is poetic and immediately triggers all sorts of associations in the mind of the player.
But don't overestimate the influence of other games on our work. Painting and architecture are far more important. Other games mostly serve the function of assuring us that we're not entirely crazy. That what we find interesting in this medium is actually feasible and enjoyable.
Also, other games than the ones we really like can be very influential. If only because frustrating with their gameplay motivates us to not incorporate that kind of stuff in our own work.
GSW: What do you find exciting in the industry, both in terms of commercial and independent product?
ToT: We're not particularly fond of any industry. Much like we weren't fond of the art world before. But at least the games industry is better organized to give the audience access to our work. There is a lot of hope in the games industry, and thus a lot of support for experimental designers like ourselves. That's nice.
GSW: Is it something that you've seen improve over the last six or so years?
ToT: Honestly: no. As you can tell from our little list of favourite games, all relatively old games, we don't think significant progress has been made lately. Five years ago, the dream seemed a lot more alive within the games industry. Now it seems a certain consolidation is happening where the big game companies are happy producing braindead toys for the masses.
So far, in turn, the independents have been mostly creating braindead toys for the cliques. But I think there is still hope there. Especially since new digital distribution channels are stimulating even big companies to have pseudo-independent side projects.
GSW: What has the reaction to your titles been like from gamers? Considering that one of your main goals is to "make art for people", is it an important factor in what you do?
ToT: Maybe we should rephrase that to "make art for people, not for gamers".
We would like to make games that can be appreciated by p