@Play: The Delights Of Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer DS
March 28, 2008 8:00 AM |
['@ Play' is a kinda-sorta bi-weekly column by John Harris which discusses the history, present and future of the Roguelike dungeon exploring genre.]
(Note: screenshots from the Super Famicom fan-translated version.)
In recognition of the U.S. release, after more than ten years since its Super Famicom origin, of the DS version Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer, our column again focuses on that game.
It's very long this time, and divided into three parts:
Part 1 is an introduction to the game for people who have never played roguelikes before. There have been so many negative reviews of this game, written by people who should really know better, that I think a little consciousness-raising is called for. That's what Part 1 is about.
Part 2 is a guide to first-timers to help ease their first trip through Kobami Vally and Table Mountain.
If this seems like rather a lot, well, it is. I was encouraged to see that it's finally available in local department stores! I hope this means that it's selling better than expected. It seems that there's already a Wii update of Shiren in Japan. That could very well be the coolest cool thing of all... just maybe, if the DS version does well, they might consider localizing that game too?
Well, let's not get our hopes up, shall we?
(This column is focused mostly on new players. If you're an old-hand with the Super Famicom game, here's a list of some of the differences between it and the DS version: Download file. Thanks to Teasel from the NeoGAF forums and Gabikun of GameFAQs for some of the items. Further thanks to Lord Gek for pointing me to Gabikun's list.)
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Part 1: Why You Should Play This Game
What is it that reviewers have against Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer?
"Everything about this game is excruciatingly painful to anyone who associates the words “video game” with fun and exciting."
(Britishgaming.co.uk)
I take serious issue with dismissing the game as "painful." Getting killed in ludicrous ways is part of the fun.
"However, due to the turn-based nature of the game, the entire experience feels stop-and-go. Attacking enemies is a quick, no frills affair with only the minimal amount of animations. Granted, this is a port of a Super Nintendo game, but even other SNES RPGs managed to have a little more pizzazz. When we bust out a Lightning Staff or breathe fire thanks to Dragon Herb, we certainly wouldn't mind a smidge more style. We just lit some undead soldier on fire after all, give us something to "ooh and ah" over!"
(IGN DS)
If this guy played an ASCII roguelike it'd probably burn his eyes. And I can't believe he is criticizing a game for being "stop-and-go." I can recognize that he's trying to say something unique, but what does that even mean?
"On the downside, the dungeon generation can be moronic and if Shiren dies, he loses everything - all the items, money, and powers he attained through hours of questing are gone. Games, in general, have gotten easier since this title was originally released on the SNES and this unforgiving style simply won't fly with players raised on newer games."
(GamesRadar)
Re: moronic, realism is less important than being fun, and the layout of the dungeon levels is less important than what they contain. The fact that games have gotten easier is not seen, universally, as a good thing, even among people who only recently started playing. There must be some reason torture games like I Wanna Be The Guy have gained in popularity, and the main quest of Shiren, while hard, is far from torturous.
"All told, there’s not much special to Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer. The game is boring in the early going, and then it becomes scary. Who wants to explore so badly that they’ll die and go back to zero? This could be yet another example of a product that makes much more sense in the region in which it was initially created. And so, I’d suggest Shiren go back to Japan."
(Geek.com)
The boring early levels are there for fortify the player character for the later levels. Players need to use the treasure found in the first half of the game to survive the second half. This is all by design.
"Imagine if Satan were to create a video game. If he did, he’d probably join forces with Chunsoft to create Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer.
[...]
The game is a roguelike dungeon crawler that spews Japanese gaming out of every orifice imaginable.[...]"
(Sega Nerds)
The reviewer misspeaks: roguelikes are really more Cthulhu's bag. "Spewing Japanese gaming" sounds like something I did when I watched a roommate play through Kingdom Hearts. I won't touch upon the "every orifice imaginable" phrasing, except to say that my nightmares feature some pretty funky orifices, and only a few of them show up in Shiren.
With all these reviewers lining up to take shots at the game, you'd almost think it was already out for the Wii....
I can't fault them to some extent, as roguelikes are still kind of obscure. (I hope that @Play will eventually help to alleviate this condition.) But to hear people whose job it is to recommend games for people to play rag on one of my favorites of all time, and I've played a great many, is kind of infuriating. And it looks like I'm not the only one who really likes it, either. So the best thing I can do, as I see it, is present my own view. Here it is.
The first thing you should know about Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer, and something that I wish each of the above reviewers had been told before they wrote their pieces, is that it is a game.
That may seem like an obvious statement, but it's not as simple a declaration as it may first appear. While the G in RPG stands for Game, many are not games in the strictest sense: they care more about storytelling than play, and there is no real way to lose. The definition of game has been only recently expanded to cover the kinds of things most CRPGs are. Some still hold that opinion even now: the kinds of person who turn their nose up at RPGs are probably influenced by those old definitions.
In a Final Fantasy or a Dragon Quest, if your party is wiped out it is not a real failure, for you can always return to your last save. So long as the player doesn't do something grossly stupid, like selling all his equipment and wandering the wilds naked, he's not going to fail at the quest. Meanwhile, Shiren the Wanderer is a game in a more fundamental sense, the sense that you can actually lose at it, and probably will many times before you earn your first win. While it is not real-time, it is still much like a classic arcade game, where games nearly always end by losing. As Dwarf Fortress reminds us, losing can be fun.
But it is still a role-playing game. It and other roguelikes arguably have better claim to that title than other CRPGs. There are games that got inspiration from the earliest incarnations of Dungeons & Dragons, but even now roguelike games, with their "no do-overs" policy, their dependence on player preparation, strategy and volition, and their opportunities for creative play more profound than just hitting the X button repeatedly, feels more like a pen-and-paper RPG session than many Western RPGs, and nearly all other Japanese ones.
The word volition up there isn't used casually, and it gets to the core of what makes roguelikes and traditional CRPGs, which both spring from the same ideas and ancestor games, so different from each other. In traditional games, the player is told, pretty much, exactly what to do and where to go. There may be some subquests, but the focus is on the main story, and there's not a lot the player can do to affect the route he will have to take. Roguelikes require that the player, instead, perceive what his needs are himself, take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves, and make his own way through the dungeon. You cannot play a roguelike passively, letting a story wash over you. You must drive yourself forward and accomplish the game.
Of all roguelike RPGs, Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer may be the best first-time introduction that has yet been created. It is challenging, but not overwhelmingly so once you learn the rules and how to escape from trouble. While new players still tend to die a lot, they can still make some progress in each game that makes later attempts easier, the artwork, animation and writing are entertaining enough that players can have fun even if they die, the controls are much simpler than the every-key-does-something norm of the genre, and there are few "instadeaths" compared to a game like Nethack.
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer is a DS game, but it is based on a Super Famicom game released over ten years ago that was never released outside of Japan. The dungeons are random, but there is a logic to what happens in them. This logic means it is a game in which amazing things can happen: a monster that attacks the player with an explosion might accidentally kill another monster, thus gaining a level, and becoming a far deadlier monster in the process.
Back in 1996, a guy named Alan Kwan wrote up a couple of stories about the game, based on his own playing, and posted them to Usenet. These stories are how I first learned about the game, and they are still excellent introductions. If you really want to know what playing it feels like I cannot recommend them more highly:
Story 1: Dark Owls, Super Tanks and Menbells
Story 2: Theft, Master Chickens, and Staves of Misfortune
I also devoted three columns to the SNES Shiren some months ago, that used lots of screenshots and explanatory captions to describe the game. Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3
Some things Shiren the Wanderer is not:
- It is not impossible. People do win this game. You'll win too if you stick with it, at least the main Table Mountain quest, I guarantee it.
- It is not mindless. Far from it, it requires far more strategy than nearly any other non-roguelike RPG.
- It is not badly made. Shiren the Wanderer is really very well-designed. It has the tightest core game system of any top-tier roguelike other than Rogue itself. Nearly every item, even supposedly bad ones, has a purpose. Every monster, even those with tricky attacks and abilities, have strategic ways to make them less dangerous, even harmless.
- It is not unfair. The great majority of situations have ways out of them. Sometimes, it is true, you may have to make a sacrifice, or the way out is not to have gotten into it to begin with, but there are usually ways to have seen them coming. With good planning and economical use of resources, you can do a lot to ensure you'll have the tools to survive the later half of the game.
- It is likely not the same as other random dungeon games you may have played. Although nearly all random dungeon games are inspired by roguelikes, many of them neglect important features. Even among roguelikes, Shiren's a bit special. In the taxonomy of the genre, it's closer to being a Hack-like game than a 'Band, but it's really closest to Rogue itself.
Part 2: For New Players
Some tips for players going through Table Mountain for the first time:
The beginning of roguelike wisdom is in recognizing critical moments. A critical moment is a turn in which, if you don't do something important, you may die before you get your next turn. For example, if you're next to an enemy who has just hit you for 20 damage, and you have less than 20 HP left, that is a critical moment because you may die if it gets another attack. If you swing and try to kill the monster, you might either not do enough to finish it or miss, in which case if he doesn't miss you may take 20 HP of damage. Even if you know you could kill the enemy with one blow nine times out of ten, you should not take that chance unless you can certainly kill it or have no alternative. There are lots of monsters but only one Shiren, so over the course of the adventure luck tends to favor the enemy.
That is a simple example, but there are so many special monster abilities that it can sometimes be difficult to recognize danger. Most critical moments in this game are caused by damage done by monsters. One of the most reliable responses to a critical moment caused by damage is to push a Chiropractic Jar, which fills up your hit points. These jars are common and can be used multiple times each, make healing easy if you have a spare turn, and you can't heal yourself if you're dead. If in doubt, heal.
If you often find yourself running out of food, consider trying these things:
- There is a free Big Riceball available from talking to a guy across the counter in the tavern in Canyon Village. After adventuring some and finishing some subquests, you can eventually get free free fill-ups in Mountaintop Town.
- Sometimes completing one of Fay's Puzzles is worth a free riceball.
- There are ways to get a little extra fullness without eating a riceball. Herbs and meat give you 5% and 10% fullness, respectively.
- The longer you wait before eating a Big Riceball, the more use you get out of it. In a sense, every percentage point a source of fullness will take you over maximum is wasted food. It's usually best to wait until you're actually starving before eating it.
- Riceballs are harmed by Rotten Traps unless they're in some container. With a little searching, quite suitable containers are not hard to come across and identify.
- While finding riceballs in the dungeon is random, there are monsters in the game that make food, and monsters are less random than items. Making effective use of them is tricky, but not hard with a little thought.
- There are two guaranteed shops in the game that often have riceballs in them.
- Staying at an inn fills up your hunger meter. If you're approaching a town with an inn in it, you should probably not eat a riceball, but wait until town. New to the DS game, you can leave these towns and return to them to regenerate their stock.
- Don't wander around too much. You get hungry as turns pass, and walking around is how most turns are wasted. Don't take the long way around a dungeon level if you can help it, don't waste too much time healing up, don't run from fights more than you have to, and don't spend a lot of time leveling up.
- Some monsters make you hungrier as a special attack. Deal with them quickly to save your stomach.
- Finally, if you're really out of food, you can still make do for a few turns. Running out of fullness doesn't mean you die instantly, you just are unable to heal naturally and lose one HP a turn until you eat. If you have reliable means of healing, you can keep going for a short while. If you're getting near the end but your food stores are depleted, a sprint to the stairs can be effective. I've won a game while in starvation mode.
If you've got an extra stuff, use excess resources first. Dragon Herbs are one of the more useful items, able to destroy most single monsters in one turn, but if you have several of them they should be an early recourse in a tricky situation.
If your inventory is full and you really want to pick up another item you might have to make a hard decision as to what to take with you and what to leave behind. One option is, instead of just dropping something, think if something you're carrying can be usefully used up first. Of special note is when you're carrying Medicinal Herbs, Restoration Herbs and Chiropractic Jars. Chiropractic Jars are the best healing items in the game: they fill all your hitpoints instead of 100 at most, and they can each be used multiple times. If you have several Chiropractic Jars you're probably set as far as healing goes. In this case, if you're suffering from full pockets, consider eating the Medicinal Herbs and Restoration Herbs when you're at full hitpoints. This both frees up inventory space and increases your maximum hit points by a small amount. Of courfse, if you haven't found any Chiropractic Jars you'll need those herbs for healing.
One of the hint-providing characters in the game offers a tip that makes it sound like all shields make you hungrier but the Armor Ward shield makes you more hungry than usual, and Hide Shields make you less. This is not exactly true. Most Shields don't affect your hunger rate at all. Only the Armor Ward shield makes you more hungry, and the Hide Shield makes you less hungry than even if you had no shield. Without a shield, you lose one fullness point every 10 turns, but with a Hide Shield you lose one every 20.
The walls in dungeons are interesting because, unlike with water, trees or pits, you cannot cut across their corners by moving diagonally, either to move or attack with a weapon. This means, if you're standing in a doorway, usually only one monster can attack you. But a few monsters have attacks that can hit through corners, particularly any monster with a flame attack. While most swords cannot attack across wall corners, the Razor Wind sword can, as well as arrows, staff blasts and thrown items.
In a tight spot, one-use items should be used before wands. Shiren has very limited inventory space, and a wand is potentially several escapes in one slot while a Dragon Herb is only one. There are plenty of exceptions to this though: Dragon Herbs are the most powerful instant damage item, and some scrolls, such as Blastwave, Confusion and Sleep, can affect a whole room.
Blastwave Scrolls become less useful for clearing our Monster Houses later on. In Table Mountain, even reading two such scrolls will probably not clear a Monster House, although it'll probably make it much easier to kill the monsters in melee. A FAQ for the SNES version on GameFAQs claims that reading a Powerup Scroll before reading a Blastwave increases its power. I have yet to confirm this, however. (It also says that reading multiple Powerup Scrolls have a cumulative effect.)
Keep food in Jars of Holding to protect them from Rotten traps.
Most item-destroying enemies cannot destroy your currently-used equipment.
Curse Girls & family can now curse any item. Non-equipment cursed items cannot be used, but can still be thrown.
Don't keep all your food in one jar, so you don't lose access to all your food because of one inopportune curse.
If you really need the contents of a cursed Jar of Holding, you can get your stuff back by throwing it at a wall. The jar will break and your stuff will be released onto the floor. But if you can wait, it's best to use a Scroll of Blessing so you can keep the jar.
The Fowl family of enemies can electrify items. Charged items cannot be used, dropped or thrown, and vanish once off the floor. It's unknown, currently, if there is a way to rescue a charged item before it evaporates. Fowl-class enemies don't seem to be able to affect jars, but this may be inaccurate.
Rice Changers CAN affect jars. Make an effort to kill them before they get into melee range. If you're trapped, you can protect important items by dropping them, for Rice Changers can only transform stuff you're carrying. (Note, however, that Field Raiders also appear on the Rice Changer floors, and they can turn items on the ground into weeds.)
Here's a table of which monsters can affect which items, based on personal observation. I do not claim that it's perfectly accurate, especially for Fowl, but it seems to hold up for me:
Effect Equipment? Jars?
Fowl: Destroy N N
Rice Changer: Transform N Y
Curse Girl: Curse Y Y
Walrus: Steal N Y
Slime: Corrode Y, only N
When you hit a normal-speed enemy with a Wand of Sloth, slowing it down, you have one turn before it gets its next move. If you slowed it because it can kill you in one turn and it's adjacent, the best move to make is to step away from it, so it'll use its next move to catch up. Then you can kill it easily using hit-and-run tactics.
The most common wands, in order from most useful to least, are: Bufu, Paralysis, Postpone, Sloth, Doppelganger, Knockback, Lightning, Switching, and Steadiness. But each has particular instances where they excel: Doppelganger is the only wand that can potentially save you from a whole Monster House, although at the cost of allowing foes to promote. Lightning is good if you have no arrows. Switching is best in opportunistic situations, but can sometimes instantly get you from the middle of a Monster House to the door or staircase. Steadiness is hard to identify, but in the Table Mountain adventure it's usually the wand that doesn't cause anything to happen when swung at a monster.
One of the most frustrating situations in the game is being attacked by a wall-pass monster inside a wall. Monsters that can pass through walls are unique in that, while embedded, they can attack without you being able to hit them back! One of the most deadly later monsters, Death Angel, has double speed, double attacks AND wall-pass! If you're in a corridor and don't have a pickaxe, the only effective way to fight them is to move along the corridor, offering it free attacks, until, in the process of following you, it moves into the passage. Don't skimp on the healing if this happens to you.
Room-affecting scrolls, if not used in a room, work only on the spaces immediately surrounding Shiren. A notable exception to this is the Monster Scroll, which turns a room into a Monster House, complete with loot. If it's read in a corridor, the game will teleport Shiren to a room before it takes effect.
New to the DS version is the ability to go backward through the stairs, to previous levels, up to a point, but items usually aren't generated on the ground on such levels except in shops. But monsters that drop items upon death do still appear and leave loot behind, and if you go back a floor because you fell through a pitfall (which happens on the Table Mountain levels, which go up instead of down), then you WILL find items on that level.
One of the cooler things about the game that people don't suspect at first is that some items have special effects when thrown. Dragon Scrolls, when read, blast in front of Shiren with fire breath, but they also have a similar effect when thrown, and if thrown with a Pitcher's Armband they can affect a whole line of monsters. Bottomless Jars, if thrown and broken, create pitfall traps. Break a Walrus Jar and its walruses become monsters on the current level -- useful because they leave behind loot if killed before they steal from the player. If a Monster Jar is pressed, its monsters jump out and surround the player, but if the jar is thrown and broken the monsters are confused. If you really need to kill an enemy from a distance, you can throw spare weapons and shields. Finally, while the game suggests throwing staves if they are out of charges to get one last effect, it is possible, though rare, that a thrown staff will have no effect.
Three floors in the Table Mountain quest, in particular, are unusually dangerous and should be evacuated as soon as possible. Levels 15 and 16, the marsh right before Table Mountain, are the "drain floors." They have several monsters that can lower your strength, corrode equipment, destroy items and drain levels. The experience you could earn from defeating them, and even the loot you could get, is generally not worth the resources lost in exploring them, so my advice is to head through the exit as soon as you find it.
The other super-dangerous floor is 26, the Ravine of Illusions, a somewhat-open level containing Skull Wraiths. Skull Wraiths are the third level of the Skeleton Mage monster, and have much more dangerous wand effects. They can paralyze, confuse or put you to sleep, turn you into a monster or even a riceball, temporarily seal your inventory, and drain levels, all from a distance. Just being in line with a Skull Wraith is a critical moment: a single unlucky shot can end your game. If you get paralyzed or slept, they may well get the chance to get several more shots off on you before you get another turn. Skull Wraiths are among the most dangerous monsters in the game, and should be neutralized as soon as possible. If you paralyze one, it's recommended that you do NOT wake it up to kill it unless you can finish it immediately.
From 26 on to the end, the game spikes up in difficulty. In addition to Skull Wraiths, Dragons appear on these floors. Sprinting to the stairs is often a good idea.
To handle level 30: the boss monster, Tainted Insect, looks imposing and has a bucket full of hit points, but can be affected in all the ways the other monsters can be. In practice, the Skull Wraiths on this floor are much more threatening. But when the boss is killed, all the other monsters die as well, and the boss won't appear on later runs through Table Mountain.
In roguelike news....
The 7DRL Challenge has finished another competition, and as usual, a number of fascinating ideas have come out of it. In the past it's given us such clever games as DoomRL and ChessRogue. Among the winners this year is Fatherhood, a game without monsters where the player must save his homeland from flooding while tending to his three children; Numbers, a game that drills the player's math skills as he goes; and Tribe, a turnabout roguelike where the player leads a band of goblins against the adventurers that have long persecuted them. And in the tradition of taking a pre-existing video game and making a roguelike out of this, this year has given us MegamanRL....
Uh, Mega Man? What? Why? How?
About a month ago the Nethack community suffered a grievous blow when the largest public Nethack server, alt.org, went down, it seemed for good. Public Nethack servers are particularly awesome not just because all the players contribute to a shared high score list, but because people can encounter bones levels from folk they've never met, and it's even set up so that games-in-progress can be watched, and in-game mail be sent to players via Nethack's Mail Daemon monsters. All this via telnet. This is the place that has now hosted two games with scores that came in at the highest integer the game can count to. Welcome back alt.org!
Categories: Column: At Play








22 Comments
Based on your previous articles I purchased this game a couple of weeks ago (had no trouble finding it, actually found it used at gamestop). I'm having a lot of fun with it. One tip I would have for new players, is to replay Fay's puzzles until you have a decent weapon, a couple of Air Blessing Scrolls, and maybe a Blessing Scroll. It makes the first few levels quite a bit easier.
Anthony Molinaro | March 28, 2008 11:19 AM
Great stuff there, John!
One thing I found interesting in that SegaNerds' review is that even after ripping the game a new one it sounds like the author, Chris, was still hooked (one of those, "I'm not even sure why I bother but now that I've been revived...").
Oh, and some corrections to your tips:
-The items "fouled by fowls" return to normal once you get to the next level.
-Higher leveled Walri (3rd and above) can steal your equipped equipment I believe.
LordGek | March 28, 2008 1:25 PM
Are you sure about that, LordGek? In my experience the electrified items disappear when you go to the next floor.
I hadn't played the SNES version before picking this up for the DS - it's interesting to hear that the ability to backtrack is new to the DS game.
Even moreso because of one HUGE advantage it gives ...
*** slight tactical spoilerage warning ***
If you backtrack all the way to the starting village, you essentially restart at level 1 without anyone in your party - BUT, you keep all your items and cash. In practice what this means is that it's possible to farm the early levels for gear before heading into Table Mountain itself. Also, while town Blacksmiths don't reset when you leave and revisit a town, they do reset if you start over at level 1. So it's possible to take your Katana or Mastersword through Bamboo Village and Mountaintop Town, upgrading it at each blacksmith, then backtrack to the start to reset and repeat. I used this to get my Mastersword to about +20 before taking on Table Mountain for my first win.
This does make for a slight grind experience akin to an RPG level grind - and if you die with that +30 UberMeldedSword on you, it hurts. Bad. (I know from experience.) But, well, it works, and it's still far less of a grind than leveling up monsters in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. =P
josh g. | March 28, 2008 2:22 PM
there are some thing wrong with that difference file you made
- common item don't get auto-identified,those item get auto-identified because you probably have one of them in your warehouse
- radish didn't vanish... rank 1 radish on BF5 did vanish but you still encounter rank 2 radish later in the swamp... also the rank 1 radish still throw herbs in a straight line
- i'm pretty sure oryu could blind foes in distance in the snes version too... actualy oryu doesn't blind enemies but just blinds the entire room
-
teasel | March 28, 2008 3:59 PM
I wanted to thank you a whole ton for these series of articles. My experience with console rogue-likes haven't exactly been stellar (think Azure Dreams) but after hearing lots of positive buzz, I took a chance on Shiren, and I'm really enjoying it. I wholeheartedly appreciate your efforts!
discoalucard | March 28, 2008 7:24 PM
Great article. I'm a huge fan of @ Play (and GameSetWatch in general, whoo-hoo Death Tank Zwei and Shiren recognition!), as you've likely deduced.
I've been supporting this game coming here on the DS for months now, and now it's finally happened. In fact, I was so excited that I played it to death and was the first to achieve the #1 score on the rankings here. XD
As I could've only predicted, this game got a bad reception. I've been hyping it to death, as have dark steve, teasel, Lord Gek, Gabikun, and I'm sure plenty of others.
Maybe you can't recognize who I am, I've gone by several names here. I went by KidIcarus3, DeathTankZwei, ToeJam&Earl, ArleNadja, IzunaShino, and probably others. I'll just go by LordKuruku now. My name was Lord Grant on Shiren, but I've changed it and will use this name from now on to avoid confusion.
I got a laugh out of those review excerpts, by the way. I personally find it mind-boggling that somebody can hate what may very well be the most addicting game on the DS, and make no mistake with stuff like Mario Kart DS, Metroid Prime Hunters, Meteos, Nanostray, Castlevania, NSMB, Tetris DS, and heaven know's what else (I wouldn't mind a Puyo game that wasn't Fever, if you catch my drift Sega), it's not exactly short on competition.
I noticed I wasn't credited for jack here, lol. I guess I should've been more helpful. :P
Maybe you'd be interested to know, in addition to talking it up with other fans, I made a large topic on a board called Legion of Wii promoting the game.
Unfortunately, you have to be a member to view the board and I can't get a mirror of the page. Doesn't matter though, this is a much better read than anything I could write up.
I've been neglecting Shiren as of late (Curse you SSBB! You had to come out around the same time!), but you should look forward to seeing LordKuruku's name in the top half of those lists again soon! :D
LordKuruku | March 28, 2008 7:43 PM
- Electrified items vanish on the next floor. It's odd that the game would wait a floor to get rid of them though, it makes me think there may be a way to de-electrify them, but I have no idea how. (Can a thief steal one?)
- It does seem like Oryu the blinds the room now.
- Since I wrote this, I came to suspect that it must be the warehouse that ID's stuff. Does that IDing apply to the Final Puzzle too?
- It wasn't clear I was just talking about the early radishes in the changes list?
- Hm, hadn't encountered a walrus greater than green yet, equipment theft seems like just the thing they'd do....
- LordKuruku, hey! Sorry I can't see the page, but I chafed enough at NeoGAF's obnoxious account-verifying hoops that I don't think I could go through something like again without throwing my laptop against the wall....
I've made a few attempts at Final Puzzle, and it does seem to be much more challenging this time, enough so that I'm starting to restore to (gasp) price ID to get a leg-up on item identification.
JohnH | March 28, 2008 10:21 PM
- nope... everything is unidentified on fay final puzzle no matter what
- you can't discard or drop electrified item so basicaly you have a wasted space in your inventory for the entire floor
- mmm... you did say poison radish,my fault for always thinking about ranks and not calling them with their proper name
teasel | March 29, 2008 4:27 AM
All items you have get identified when you enter a town.
Keeping electrified item in inventory makes sense in that it hurts Shiren more than just destroying it on the spot >.<
I heard you can instantly kill Riceball changers of all levels by throwing a riceball at them, but I'm yet to try that...
Amoniak | March 29, 2008 4:42 AM
Nice roundup, I bought shiren based on your excellent series of articles in @play, and I've enjoyed it greatly! I managed to beat the Tainted Monster without grinding a weapon, sloth + Hack'n'back all over the level got me there in the end :)
I'm actually enjoying the special dungeons more than the main quest, although they seem to be a fair bit harder as well, and I'm not really sure what the goal of each is, a bit confusing unless they're all just "Get to the lowest level"
EvilHayama | March 29, 2008 5:52 AM
one thing to note is that entering one of fay's challenge things resets your game -- which means you can harvest as many big riceballs from the inn as you want (storing them of course), just by visiting there after each attempt at fay's.
raigan | March 29, 2008 7:43 AM
Doh, excuse my correction, I think you are correct there!
Interesting how there seems to be some weighting to WHICH item is electrified. Like the 1st level fowl seem to always take out an herb with the higher level guys able to effect other objects as well.
LordGek | March 29, 2008 8:45 AM
The only real complaint that I would level against the game, is that one of it's features designed to help neophytes has, I believe, backfired severely.
Namely, I don't believe weapons and shields should be as upgradeable as they are. Added effects are well implemented, but the damage modifiers should not pile on as stupid high as they do. This only reinforces the sense of failure and despair neophytes will feel after a total loss.
Other than that and some assorted nitpicks that don't add up to much, I love this game and really appreciate these efforts to educate potential consumers.
chispito | March 29, 2008 12:56 PM
Weapon building was in the Super Famicom Shiren too, but it was both less necessary (good luck finishing the three new dungeons without it) and harder (you had to clear Table Mountain or rely on random couriers and/or storerooms to get the weapon to smithys repeatedly).
The new dungeons are somewhat interesting for a challenge though, even if weapon building destroys some of the challenge of the main quest.
John H. | April 1, 2008 2:20 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments about the reviews the game has received. For reviewers to not judge the game from the perspective of someone who actually wants to play that genre is, in my mind, wholly irresponsible reviewing. On the one hand these are the sort of people who moan about annual updates, yet excessively damn anything that dares to venture from any particular genre's accepted template. I like watching NFL on the TV, but I don't play NFL games at all as I find them boring. I wouldn't be the ideal person to review a NFL game then, at risk of me saying things like "there are too many plays to choose from", "it's silly because you can't throw the ball forwards more than once" and the clincher "American football eh? Well it's a bit stop-and-go!". That's the nature of the game and it should fall to a more enthusiastic and interested reviewer to look at that game. In the same way, for someone who doesn't really understand what Rogue-like RPGs are and to review them from a sort of "It's not exactly the same as Final Fantasy so it must suck" perspective is completely remiss of that reviewer and organisation's responsibility to give games a fair go at the review stage. Besides, have these reviewers not noticed the previously released Pokémon Mystery Dungeon or Izuna games for DS? Do these same reviewers look at shoot-em-ups and instantly dismiss them all as far too hard because they can't loll on the couch staring with a glazed expression at the screen, stuffing crisps and coke into their mouths with one hand and jabbing at the A button with the other while waiting for the next 20 minute story sequence? I've almost certainly had less involving experiences with some of the more recent JRPGs, so I'm not the correct person to review them as I already have a propensity for severe negativity towards the majority of them.
Again, most of the reviews quoted seem to me to be examples of irresponsible reviewing and it's a real shame that those reviews could impact sales of a game which is at least trying something different in today's terms, even if it is a conversion of a Super Famicom game. The videogame market is still expanding, which is a truly great thing. There is now room for story-driven, fairly easy spy games, 2D platformers, music games, party games, games specifically aimed at teenage girls or older people, all competing for space on the shop shelves, so by that very token there shall be a place for Rogue-likes and the people who play them.
Vertigo | April 2, 2008 2:47 AM
I agree with those reviewers wholeheartedly. I said it before - and i'll say it again : putting the player back to square one without any advancement available - is an incredibly dumb idea. I'll take a load game over that any day.
I pray to God no more idiots would try and use it. Its not adding anything to the game, its pointless, and just illogical.
Karry | April 4, 2008 7:23 AM
@Karry: You don't understand the game or the genre. At all. Your reaction is about the same as playing a realistic flight sim and wondering why anyone would want to deal with gauges and flight plans when you could be blowing shit up. Or playing Metal Slug and getting pissed off over how you die with one shot to the foot. The former could be seen as pointless, the latter illogical, but they are what make the games work in their particular genre.
Actually, a better analogy is with old-school shooters and action games. Lose all your continues, and it's back to the start. Unfair? Maybe. But there's a sense of danger and tension that you don't get in a game where any death is easily remedied with a reload, with an accompanying sense of accomplishment when you do complete it (so much for "not adding anything to the game"). If you don't want to play that kind of game, then don't.
I'm not really sure why you're so vehement about preventing these kinds of games from being made. The market is so saturated with "fix death with a reload/start from your last checkpoint" games that I'm sure we can allow some games that don't fit your palate to exist.
concrete_d | April 7, 2008 11:11 AM
Karry, I don't think you don't understand the genre very well. But the thing is, I already covered your issues in the column. It's almost as if you haven't read it....
John H. | April 13, 2008 5:11 AM
I had a rice changer upgrade to a Rice Boss,then I discovered that they can turn *you* into a rice ball. Quite the surprise for such a low level.
More tips:
- You aren't limited to playing the puzzle dungeons once per time round,so you can easily build up a collection of equipment before you set off. You can,with any luck,set off with three or four healing herbs this way.
- Eat those herbs the first chance you get. You're likely to be in little danger on the path to the first town and,AFAIK,an extra HP at level 1 adds up when you level up.
AckSed | April 19, 2008 5:18 AM
Question... If I travel backwards back to Canyon Hamlet I know I lose my money and levels, but do you lose all your items too? I left some stuff in the storehouse there I need for melding, but I don't want to go back and lose my melding jar.
Savory Cade | April 24, 2008 9:08 AM
Savory, not sure if you're still checking for responses here, but just in case....
If you return to Canyon Hamlet, you lose allies and levels, but you don't lose EITHER items or money. It's possible to abuse this.
AckSed: The standard use for medicinal herbs is to use them to boost max hit points, since they replenish too few hits to matter to any but a level one Shiren. Restoration Herbs should be saved for healing only if the player hasn't found any Chiropractic Pots, since the extra hit points are useful and it opens up needed inventory slots.
John H. | May 15, 2008 1:54 AM
I know it's way too late... but just wanted to point out that DoomRL was NOT born from a 7DRL challenge ;)
Slashie | December 15, 2009 12:42 PM